4 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --x


6 et al., :

7 Plaintiffs, :

8 v. : Case No. 02-582


10 et al., :

11 Defendants. :

12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x




16 Washington, DC

17 Monday, September 30, 2002













1 Deposition of JOHN L. OLIVER III, called for

2 examination pursuant to notice of deposition, on

3 September 30, 2002, in Washington, DC, at the offices

4 of Covington & Burling, 1201 Pennsylvania Avenue,

5 N.W., at 8:15 a.m., before FRANK SMONSKEY, CM, a

6 Notary Public within and for the District of

7 Columbia, when were present on behalf of the

8 respective parties:



11 Covington & Burling

12 1201 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

13 Washington, DC 20004-2401

14 (202) 662-5465



17 Patton Boggs LLP

18 2550 M Street, NW

19 Washington, DC

20 (202) 457-1350

21 On behalf of Plaintiff

22 Republican National Committee








1 APPEARANCES (Continued):


3 Executive Director


5 National Voting Rights Institute

6 One Bromfield Street

7 Third Floor

8 Boston, MA 02108

9 (616) 368-9100

10 On behalf of Plaintiff Adams




14 Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering

15 2445 M Street, N.W.

16 Washington, DC 20037-1420

17 (202) 663-6784

18 On Behalf of Intervenor Defendants

19 Senators John McCain, Russell Feingold,

20 James Jeffords, Olympia Snowe, and

21 Representatives Christopher Shays and

22 Martin Meehan










3 Counsel

4 Republican National Committee

5 310 First Street, S.E.

6 Washington, DC 20003

7 (202) 863-8638



10 Paralegal

11 Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering

12 2445 M Street, N.W.

13 Washington, DC

14 (202) 663-6705
















1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 Whereupon,


4 was called as a witness and, having first been duly

5 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:


7 MR. BURCHFIELD: We have a bit of an odd

8 situation here in that as I understand it we have

9 about an hour and a half left of the deposition of

10 Jack Oliver as Jack Oliver or Jock as his friends

11 know him, and then we go to the 30(b)(6) deposition

12 which you have separately noticed.

13 So, for the next hour and a half he is

14 going to be deposed in his personal capacity and he

15 will continue to answer questions based upon personal

16 knowledge.

17 THE WITNESS: Right.

18 MR. BURCHFIELD: That's equity.

19 MR. BONIFAZ: A that's our understanding.



22 Q Hello again, Mr. Oliver. My name is John








1 Bonifaz. I am the executive director of the National

2 Voting Rights Institute of Boston with my colleague

3 and co-counsel for the Adams plaintiffs, Lisa

4 Danetz.

5 We represent the Adams plaintiffs, which is

6 one of the 11 consolidated cases challenging certain

7 provisions of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act.

8 We are on behalf of our clients challenging

9 the constitutionality of the increases in the hard

10 money limits, those that go from $1,000 to $2,000

11 overall per individual and then in certain instances

12 with self-funding candidates up to as much as $12,000

13 per individual.

14 The questions that I'm going to ask for the

15 remaining part of this deposition will focus on your

16 personal knowledge with respect to hard money in

17 particular.

18 First, I just want to introduce into the

19 record Exhibit Number 15.

20 (Oliver Exhibit 15 identified.).

21 (Witness examined the document.)









1 Q We got this from the RNC website.

2 Mr. Oliver, do you recognize this bio of you on the

3 RNC website?

4 A Yes.

5 Q I would like to turn your attention just to

6 the second paragraph there and I will read into the

7 record:

8 "Jack Oliver was the National Finance

9 Director for Governor George W. Bush's presidential

10 campaign. Under this position, Jack led the campaign

11 to break all fundraising records, including raising

12 $37 million in 120 days and a total of $99 million."

13 And the fourth paragraph:

14 "Jack Oliver has served in various

15 political, financial, and managerial roles in

16 campaigns and well as the offices of Senator Jack

17 Danforth, Senator Kit Bond, John Ashcroft,

18 Congressman Bill Emerson and the Missouri Republican

19 Party."

20 All of that is correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Based on your experience in political








1 campaigns over the years, can you state your opinion

2 on how important hard money is in the political

3 process for candidates running for federal office?

4 A What do you mean?

5 Q What level of importance does hard money

6 play with respect to your background in running or

7 helping to manage political campaigns?

8 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to form.

9 THE WITNESS: Raising federal money if you

10 are running for federal office is very important.


12 Q Why?

13 A So that you get your candidate known in

14 what he or she believes.

15 Q With respect to the hard money raising,

16 first, let me be clear, how do you define hard

17 money?

18 A Federal-related dollars as set forth by the

19 federal election law.

20 Q Is it fair to say this is money that goes

21 directly to campaigns?

22 A It depends upon when it is raised, how the








1 federal hard dollars can be raised by state parties

2 and national parties as well.

3 Q Have you been engaged in raising federal

4 hard dollars during these experiences in different

5 political campaigns?

6 A Yes.

7 Q How do you go about raising hard money?

8 What are the ways you have done it?

9 A One way is direct mail solicitation, where

10 you send out letters and ask people to give money.

11 One way is the Internet and asking people

12 to send money over the Internet.

13 Another way is events where the candidate

14 may appear at events. You may have a special guest

15 at an event.

16 Another way is telephone.

17 Those would pretty much be it.

18 Q In your capacity as the national finance

19 director for the Bush presidential campaign, what was

20 the scope of your responsibilities in that position?

21 A I was in charge of raising the money for

22 the presidential campaign.








1 Q Did you go about using all the methods you

2 have just gone over doing that?

3 A Yes. Let's review those, please.

4 Q Direct mail?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Internet?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Events?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Sometimes with the candidate and via

11 telephone?

12 A Yes. I was involved in all three of those.

13 Q Are there any other areas that you engaged

14 in in raising money during that campaign?

15 A Those would be the primary methods that I

16 would have utilized.

17 Q Did you pay any special attention to those

18 who were able to give the maximum amount of $1,000 to

19 the campaign in the primary and then in the general

20 election, first the primary?

21 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to form.

22 THE WITNESS: Can you state the question








1 again?


3 Q Did you pay any special attention to

4 locating donors who were able to give the maximum

5 amount of $1,000 in the primary election?

6 A What document by special?

7 Q This bio states that you raised a total of

8 $99 million?

9 A Uh-huh.

10 Q Is it reasonable to assume that in raising

11 that kind of money those who were able to give the

12 maximum amount under the law were able to get you to

13 that total faster than those who were giving much

14 less?

15 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form.

16 THE WITNESS: I don't really understand

17 what you are -- I don't understand the premise of

18 your question.


20 Q Was a $5 contributor as important to the

21 Bush presidential campaign as a $1,000 contributor

22 was?








1 A Every contributor was important to the Bush

2 presidential campaign.

3 Q Was a $5 contributor as important as a

4 $1,000 contributor was?

5 A In my opinion, yes.

6 Q Was a $5 contributor as important as $1,000

7 contributor in the reaching the goal of $99 million?

8 A They are both important.

9 Q What did you do in terms of events in terms

10 of organizing them? How did they take place?

11 A We did all kinds of events.

12 Q Can you describe them?

13 A We had lunch events where then-Governor

14 Bush would speak at a lunch.

15 We would have events where we have other

16 people speak around meal time. Sometimes we have a

17 party around dinner time and have a dinner event.

18 Those would be are two primary times in

19 which we had events.

20 Q Were there ever any minimum asked at these

21 events in terms of what people were expected to

22 contribute in order to attend?








1 A We had events at different prices.

2 Sometimes we had a lot of event that were $1,000 a

3 person.

4 Q Why would you have events that were $1000 a

5 person?

6 A We were trying to raise money.

7 Q Did the events that were $1,000 a person

8 raise more money overall than events that were far

9 less than that?

10 A As a whole probably, yes.

11 Q In this bio where it says that you raised

12 $37 million in 120 days, what 120-day period does

13 that refer to?

14 A March 7 to June 30 or 31, one of those two

15 days. I'm sorry. I think it was June 30. How many

16 days are in June. The end of June.

17 Q Of what year?

18 A 1999.

19 Q So this was money that went directly to the

20 Bush campaign?

21 A It was George W. Bush's exploratory

22 campaign at that time.








1 Q How were you able to do that in 120 days,

2 $37 million?

3 A There was an enormous level of support from

4 people all over the country wanting the governor to

5 become president of the United States and make the

6 run.

7 We had events, direct mail solicitations,

8 Internet operations that encouraged as many people as

9 possible to participate in the process.

10 Q Did you have a structure and a plan

11 associated with it?

12 A Yes. Sure, we had a plan to do some direct

13 mail. We had a plan to do some telemarketing. We

14 had a plan to reach out to people on the Internet.

15 We had a plan to do some events.

16 Q And in your capacity as national finance

17 director, did you oversee the Pioneer program for the

18 campaign?

19 A In my capacity as finance director I was

20 responsible for fundraising of the campaign. That

21 was part of the fundraising effort. So I guess I

22 don't know anybody who was directly responsible for








1 it, but clearly it fell under my bailiwick.

2 Q What was the Pioneer program?

3 A It was a program where people expressed an

4 interest to help the campaign. We brought them

5 inside the campaign as authorized agents and

6 encouraged them to go out and raise money.

7 Q What does it mean that they were brought

8 into the campaign as authorized agents?

9 A It means they were given an individual

10 solicitor tracking number and instructed on what the

11 law was with regard to raising resources.

12 Q What was the purpose of giving them an

13 individual soliciting tracking number?

14 A So we could make sure that they were

15 authorized agents of the campaign following the laws

16 the Federal Election Commission had set out.

17 Q I will return to that matter later.

18 Who came up with this idea, Mr. Oliver, of

19 the Pioneer program?

20 A You know, I don't remember specifically who

21 came up with it. I think maybe Jim Francis came up

22 with it, but it's not a light bulb in my head.








1 Somebody came up with the idea and fought it.

2 Q Who is Jim Francis?

3 A He is a guy from Dallas, Texas.

4 Q He was employed in the campaign?

5 A No. He was a volunteer.

6 Q Did he have a position in the campaign?

7 A A paid position in the campaign?

8 Q Did he have a title, even though he was a

9 volunteer?

10 A I don't remember if Jim had a specific

11 title or not, but he may have. He's a friend. .

12 Q What were the goals of the Pioneer

13 program?

14 A The goals were to raise resources for the

15 campaign.

16 Q Is it any different in your understanding

17 and your experience than other fundraising

18 strategies?

19 A I don't know what you mean.

20 Q Is it any different from other event

21 strategies, other Internet strategies, other direct

22 mail strategies, other telephone strategies, anything








1 different about the Pioneer program from other

2 fundraising strategies?

3 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form.

4 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what you

5 are asking.


7 Q Is there anything unique about the Pioneer

8 program compared to other fundraising strategies

9 which you employed you in the past with the Bush

10 presidential campaign?

11 MR. BURCHFIELD: Same objection.

12 THE WITNESS: There was nothing unique in

13 the sense of methodology.


15 Q So you've used tracking numbers in the past

16 with other kinds of programs?

17 A I don't know if we used tracking numbers in

18 the past. That may be the unique thing that we did,

19 the tracking system.

20 But I haven't been on any other

21 presidential campaigns, so I can't answer that

22 question on what they've done in the past.








1 Q Based on your experience the tracking

2 system had not been used before in other campaigns

3 you've been on?

4 A No.

5 Q Was this better in terms of reaching the

6 fundraising goals than other fundraising strategies

7 you have been involved with?

8 A Better in what sense?

9 Q Reaching the goals.

10 A We were successful in reaching the goals.

11 I'm not sure that it was a better method. It was an

12 effective method. It worked.

13 Q Why was it effective?

14 A The Pioneer system itself, the tracking

15 method was effective because people didn't fight over

16 things like they usually did. There wouldn't be an

17 argument over all those things.

18 It was a way for people to figure out. If

19 somebody said, "Ah, I'm going to give money to you,"

20 you would be able to go back and see if that check

21 actually came in.

22 Q Was it in the past that they fought over








1 when you talked about fighting?

2 A Fighting is the wrong word. I'm trying to

3 worry about, oh, I got this person to help or got

4 somebody else got this person to help.

5 It was an easier way to be able to help

6 people understand who had sent the checks and who had

7 not.

8 Q In the past you had witnessed people who

9 were in dispute over what money they had helped

10 raise?

11 A Sure.

12 Q And that dispute was with other people who

13 were helping to raise money?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Why is it they cared?

16 A I have no idea why they cared.

17 Q What was your understanding of what they

18 cared about?

19 A I don't know why they cared. You'd have to

20 ask them.

21 Q What is your personal opinion as to why

22 those disputes occurred?








1 A I don't know. People come and go. I don't

2 know.

3 Q Mr. Oliver, you have been involved in a

4 number of campaigns based on your bio on your

5 website. You have had extensive in fundraising.

6 You've just testified that people in the

7 past have had disputes over what monies they have

8 raised and whether it got credited to them or other

9 people.

10 A Sure.

11 Q And you are testifying here based on your

12 personal knowledge and your personal opinion. I'm

13 asking you: What is your personal opinion as to why

14 those disputes occurred?

15 A In my opinion, people are anxious to be

16 helpful and are excited about being helpful and like

17 to be successful in helping.

18 Q So why do they care if someone else is

19 getting the credit for something they actually

20 raised?

21 A I mean, they may be having a photo

22 opportunity, or something like that, for people who








1 had achieved a certain, you know, raised level. They

2 may want to get their picture taken.

3 Q How did the Pioneer program operate beyond

4 the tracking system? I mean, what was the way you

5 put it in operation?

6 A Operate in the sense of?

7 Q How did you get people to become Pioneers?

8 A Some people would call and say: "Hey,

9 we're interested in helping. We want to do

10 everything we can. We want to be Pioneer."

11 "Fine." We sign them up. We go through

12 to make sure they sign the form and give them the

13 solicitor tracking number and let them go out and try

14 to raise money.

15 Q Did the campaign solicit people to become

16 Pioneers?

17 A We solicited people to help on the

18 campaign, probably not with a specific purpose of

19 them becoming Pioneers, but helping us. Yes, we

20 solicited people to help us.

21 Q Did you personally solicit people to help

22 in the Pioneer program?








1 A I solicited people to help in the campaign,

2 some of whom became Pioneers.

3 Q Did you personally solicit people to help

4 in the Pioneer program?

5 A I personally solicited people to help with

6 the campaign some of whom raised $100,000 to become a

7 Pioneer.

8 Q Tell me what was this $100,000 to become a

9 Pioneer. What does that mean?

10 A That was if you raised $100,000 it was

11 credited to your number. That was how you were made

12 a Pioneer.

13 Q Why was it that you needed to raise

14 $100,000 to become a Pioneer?

15 A It was the figure that was chosen.

16 Q Who chose it?

17 A I don't remember.

18 Q What was the purpose of setting a minimum

19 threshold of what you needed to raise in order to get

20 the label Pioneer?

21 A What was the purpose of?

22 Q Setting a minimum threshold of $100,000 in








1 order to order to get the label being a Pioneer.

2 What was the purpose?

3 A It was a number that was selected.

4 Q But presumably there was a purpose of

5 setting it there and not at a dollar, right? It

6 wasn't like if raised a dollar you got the Pioneer

7 label?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q What was the purpose of setting it at

10 $100,000?

11 A Just to encourage people to go out and

12 raise resources.

13 Q In significant sums?

14 A What do you mean by "significant"?

15 Q $100,000 or more?

16 A It was clearly hopeful people would reach

17 as far and wide as they probably could.

18 Q Were Pioneers treated differently than

19 donors who did not get to that level?

20 A What do you mean by treated differently?

21 Q Were they invited to special events that

22 other donors were not invited to?








1 A We had events for Pioneers, yes.

2 Q Were they invited to any meetings that

3 other donors were not invited to?

4 A I can't remember if we did a specific

5 Pioneer meeting or not. I think we may have, but I

6 don't remember.

7 Q Were they given any special photo

8 opportunities that other donors not at that level

9 were unable to access?

10 A I'm sure if they would have raised to

11 Pioneer status they were included in the photo

12 opportunities if we were in a city that they happen

13 to be in, yes.

14 Q Those photo opportunities were not

15 available to those under tat level were?

16 A No, they would be available to people

17 significantly under that level.

18 Q They would not or they would?

19 A They would be able to people significantly

20 under that level.

21 Q I repeat my question. Were they given any

22 photo opportunities -- Pioneers -- that were not








1 available to people who were not raising at that

2 level?

3 A I don't know if we had a specific Pioneer

4 photo opportunity. At some point we may have.

5 But the photos were much broader based than

6 that.

7 Before we start, can I take a two-minute

8 break to go to the bathroom?

9 MR. BONIFAZ: Yes, of course.

10 (Recessed at 3:40 p.m.)

11 (Reconvened at 3:45 p.m.)

12 MR. BONIFAZ: Mr. Oliver, just to make sure

13 we're clear, you are entitled to take as many breaks

14 as you need. You have been sitting here a long

15 time. So, please, just feel free to speak up and say

16 when you need a break.



19 Q We were talking about Pioneers and their

20 treatment by the campaign?

21 A Mm-hmm.

22 Q You mentioned that there were thank you








1 events that they may have been invited to that others

2 were not invited to; is that right?

3 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form.

4 THE WITNESS: Can you restate the question,

5 please?


7 Q You mentioned that there were thank you

8 events that Pioneers were invited to that other

9 donors had not been invited to; is that right?

10 MR. BURCHFIELD: Same objection.

11 THE WITNESS: I think not. I think there

12 were probably events that we had that they were

13 invited to.


15 Q As Pioneers?

16 A Uh-huh.

17 Q What kind of events were those?

18 A I think we had a reception. We may have

19 had a reception for the Pioneers.

20 My memory is such we had one. I know we

21 had one at the convention.

22 Q So one reception and one event at the








1 convention?

2 A I know we had a reception at the

3 convention. I'm trying to remember if there was an

4 event prior to that. There may have been. I don't

5 remember the specifics.

6 Q What happened at this reception at the

7 convention? Who attended it?

8 A I think the Pioneers who were in town at

9 the convention.

10 Q Who else?

11 A The finance chairman of the campaign was

12 there.

13 Q Who was that?

14 A Don Evans. Myself was there. I think Carl

15 Rove may have been there, but I don't remember.

16 Q Did candidate Bush also attend that event?

17 A He was not at that event.

18 Q What was the purpose of that event?

19 A To say thank you.

20 Q Why was the campaign wanting to say thank

21 you to these people?

22 A They worked hard. We wanted to say thank








1 you. It was a polite thing to do.

2 Q They worked hard doing what?

3 A Raising resources.

4 Q What kind of access did Pioneers get to the

5 campaign during its operation?

6 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form.

7 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by access?


9 Q What kind of influence did the Pioneers

10 have with the campaign?

11 A Influence over what?

12 Q Over any part of it.

13 A They were volunteers. I don't think they

14 had influence over the campaign.

15 Q Did any Pioneers have any contact with you

16 during the campaign?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And you were a strategist as well as a

19 fundraiser during the campaign?

20 A My duty on the campaign was as the national

21 finance director.

22 Q Did any Pioneers have contacts with








1 political strategists on the campaign?

2 A I'm sure there are instances in which they

3 did.

4 Q You are not aware of any?

5 A No. I'm sure there are instances at which

6 they did.

7 Q What kind of contacts were those?

8 A I don't know if a Pioneer was -- I mean,

9 I'm sure if they were worried that we were losing or

10 they thought we needed to be more X or more Y on the

11 strategy, they may have called to voice their

12 opinion.

13 Q Would those phone calls usually be taken?

14 A I take every call that people call me. I

15 return every single phone call.

16 Q Did these Pioneers have any contact with

17 candidate Bush or candidate Cheney?

18 A What do you mean by "contact"?

19 Q Phone contact, in-person contact,

20 correspondence contact, e-mail contact.

21 A I don't know the answer to that question.

22 I'm sure they saw the president,








1 then-governor, if we were at an event, but I don't

2 remember specific instances that I was -- they would

3 seen him if they were somewhere together.

4 Q In what instance would they be together?

5 A While we were in a photo line.

6 Q At a fundraising event?

7 A At a fundraising event. Maybe they were at

8 a rally. It depends on the context.

9 Q How many Pioneers, approximately, attended

10 this reception that was at the convention?

11 A I don't remember how many.

12 Q Approximately?

13 A A hundred and something, probably.

14 Q Were they told ahead of time this was going

15 to be something they were invited to?

16 A You mean prior to when?

17 Q Before the reception.

18 A If you wanted them to come to the

19 reception, you would have invited them to the

20 reception.

21 Q How would that invitation take place?

22 A I don't remember.








1 Q You had nothing to do with the invitation

2 process?

3 A I don't remember reviewing the invitation

4 process for that event.

5 Q Did anyone under you handle the invitation

6 process for that event?

7 A Maybe. Probably. I would guess, yes. I

8 don't remember the specifics of it.

9 Q Who might that be who handled that?

10 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form;

11 speculating.

12 Answer if you know.

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know who handled the

14 specific.


16 Q How were those who signed up to become

17 Pioneers or expressed interest in becoming Pioneers

18 treated if they did not get that status?

19 A What do you mean?

20 Q If someone signed up to say, "I'm going to

21 raise at least $100,000 for the Pioneer program," I

22 take it there is this tracking system to track how








1 they are doing; is that right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And if they did not reach that $100,000

4 goal, were they informed they have yet to reach that

5 goal?

6 A I don't remember if they were informed. If

7 they had inquired about it, I'm sure they were told.

8 We may have continued to encourage them, but I don't

9 remember a specific instance.

10 Q Were there people who signed up to become

11 Pioneers who did not make that status?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And were they in contact with the campaign

14 as to how they were doing in terms of making that

15 status?

16 A Oh, yes.

17 Q And the campaign would inform them where

18 they were on the process of making that status?

19 A Yes. If they asked, yes.

20 Q Were there ever any instances in which

21 someone who had signed up to become a Pioneer and did

22 not make that status complained about where they were








1 in terms of their own tracking and where the campaign

2 had them?

3 A I'm sure there were instances where people

4 said, "I'm at X and you got me at Y." I didn't

5 interact with that piece. I'm sure there were

6 instances.

7 Q You can't think of any right now?

8 A I don't have a specific memory of one

9 particular, but I'm sure, as I said, there were cases

10 in which people made that indication that the records

11 were not in concert with their own internal records.

12 Q Who would have in the person under your

13 leadership that would been engaged in that?

14 A It depends on who have been one of the

15 regional people that they would be working with.

16 Q Who were these regional people?

17 A We had people under me that worked in

18 different regions.

19 Q And what were their responsibilities?

20 A Their responsibilities were to work with

21 individuals within their regions, individuals.

22 Q How many regions were there?








1 A We had four regional people.

2 Q What are their names?

3 A Beth Sturgeon, Travis Thomas, Mary Kate

4 then Kelley now Johnson, and Heather Larrison.

5 Q How do you spell the last name?

6 A L-a-r-i-s-o-n.

7 Q What were these regions -- geographic?

8 A Geographic.

9 Q So Beth Sturgeon was for what region?

10 A They weren't really defined. She had the

11 Southwest.

12 Q Travis Thomas?

13 A Midwest.

14 Q Mary Kate Kelley Johnson?

15 A Northeast.

16 Q Heather Larrison, Northwest?

17 A Northwest. Beth had a couple Northwest

18 Heather had some Southeast. The map didn't make

19 sense necessarily.

20 Q And these regional people identified and

21 worked with people in those regions who were signed

22 up to be Pioneers?








1 A They were responsible for the region. Some

2 of people in those regions I am sure were signed up

3 to be Pioneers, but their job was the region.

4 Q Who was involved in administering the

5 Pioneer program?

6 A It was administered -- what do you know by

7 "administering"?

8 Q Whose direct responsibility was to deal

9 with the Pioneer program?

10 A Everybody kind of was involved in it. All

11 the regional people were involved in it.

12 Q Was there any one person on the campaign

13 who had that as a chief responsibility?

14 A There may have been a staff assistant

15 there, but I don't remember who if anybody there was

16 one. Most of them dealt directly with their

17 individual people in their region.

18 Q Most of them dealt directly with one of

19 those four people?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And I assume some of them dealt directly

22 with you?








1 A Oh, sure.

2 Q In your work dealing directly with

3 Pioneers, how did you go about recruiting people to

4 become Pioneers?

5 MR. BURCHFIELD: Objection; asked and

6 answered, I think.

7 You may answer it again.

8 MR. BONIFAZ: I think I asked how the

9 campaign did.

10 Go ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: People came to us that wanted

12 to help.


14 Q How did you --

15 A People came to me that wanted to help.

16 Q Right. And what did you tell them about

17 the Pioneer program?

18 A I said: "Hey, we've got this deal. If you

19 want to try to do it we'd love to have you, but we

20 want your help." This solicitation was for help.

21 Q What else did you tell them about what the

22 deal was?








1 A What do you mean by "the deal"?

2 Q You said, "Hey, we've got this deal." What

3 does that mean? . What did you tell them?

4 A If somebody called me and said, "I want to

5 be a Pioneer," I said, "Great."

6 If somebody called me and said, "I want to

7 help," I said, "Great."

8 It wasn't a specific solicitation for an

9 individual to become a Pioneer. It was if someone

10 said they wanted to help and indicated they wanted to

11 be a Pioneer I said great.

12 Q Did you ever approach any specific person

13 to become a Pioneer?

14 A I'm sure there are instances in which I

15 asked people to do everything they could for the

16 campaign and encouraged them become Pioneers, and I

17 am sure there are instances of that, but I don't have

18 specific memory of any one individual.

19 Q Was is part of the strategy in terms of the

20 Pioneer program that there would be an effort to

21 recruit specific people to become Pioneers?

22 A It was really done more from a geographic








1 standpoint.

2 Q What do you mean by that?

3 A When you want to raise money in Boston I

4 want to go find the people who were successful

5 fundraising people in Boston.

6 Q How would you go about doing that?

7 A In Boston I'd talk to Mary Kate who was

8 from there originally and who worked for me.

9 Q What would that conversation be like? What

10 would you talk about?

11 A "Hey, we need to go to Boston. Who can we

12 call to ask to help us?"

13 Q How would a list of people be generated in

14 terms of those you can ask to help you?

15 A They may have contributed the governor's

16 campaign for governor. There may be a list that we

17 had rented from a public available list rental

18 company. There may be a list exchange agreement that

19 we would have done with a candidate or an elected

20 official.

21 Q Were all these people that were on these

22 lists people who had helped raise money for other








1 campaigns?

2 A No. Sometimes they would be people who

3 were just donors in other campaigns.

4 Q But to be a Pioneer it wasn't just you were

5 donating; you were also helping to raise money, isn't

6 that right?

7 A Sure.

8 Q So there was there a particular focus put

9 on those who had engaged in that in the past for a

10 political campaign?

11 A Restate the question, please.

12 Q Was there a particular focus on individuals

13 who had helped raise money for prior campaigns?

14 A If we were trying to get as many people

15 involved as possible.

16 Q Were people in the business community

17 approached to become Pioneers?

18 A What do you mean by "business community"?

19 Q People engaged in corporations.

20 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form.

21 THE WITNESS: We asked people to help us.

22 People were excited about George Bush. So there were








1 people all across the country wanted to help.


3 Q Were people who were in the position of

4 corporate executives approached to become Pioneers?

5 A I'm sure there were instances in which

6 there were people who worked in business for a living

7 that were asked to help on the campaign, yes.

8 Q Why would they be approached?

9 A Maybe they called to express an interest to

10 help us.

11 MR. BONIFAZ: Excuse me one second.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


14 Q Did you target people particularly in the

15 business community to become Pioneers?

16 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form.

17 THE WITNESS: What do you mean "target"?


19 Q Did you focus in any particular way on

20 people in the business community to become Pioneers?

21 A We focus on people all over the country.

22 Q Right. But, you know, Mr. Oliver, you can








1 pick up a phone book in Boston. You can just start

2 randomly calling people, or you can decide that's

3 going to take a lot of time and you may reach a lot

4 of people who don't have any money to give, don't

5 have any ability to give. You can also find that you

6 may get a whole lot of answering machines with wrong

7 numbers, and so forth.

8 Or you can because you have limited time

9 and you want to be efficient, focus on particular

10 individuals who you think might be most helpful in

11 reaching the goals that are set forth by the Pioneer

12 program.

13 Wouldn't that correct?

14 A It would be correct that we reached such

15 people that we thought would be able to help with the

16 campaign.

17 Q Were any of those people from the business

18 community?

19 A I'm sure there were people that were from

20 the business community, from the arts community. I

21 mean there were a from variety of communities.

22 Q You just testified you did reach out to








1 particular people you thought would be helpful for

2 the campaign?

3 A Sure.

4 Q In reaching out to pick people who would be

5 helpful for the campaign, was part of that strategy

6 to reach out to people in the business community?

7 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to the form;

8 asked and answered.


10 Q You can answer the question.

11 A I have answered the question.

12 Q You can answer it again.

13 A We reached out to people all across America

14 to try to help in every possible place.

15 Q Mr. Oliver, I need a yes or no to this

16 question.

17 MR. BURCHFIELD: Mr. Bonifaz, I don't

18 believe he's required to answer yes or no because you

19 may want him to answer yes or no. I think he tried

20 to answer the question.

21 If you want to try it one more time,

22 Mr. Oliver, listen to the question. If you have








1 anything further to add to you answer feel free.


3 Q Did you make any particular effort in

4 reaching out to people in the business community to

5 become Pioneers?

6 A We reached out to people from a variety of

7 communities all across America to become helpful in

8 the campaign.

9 Q Did you ever get people who you reached out

10 to who said, "No, I'm not going to become a Pioneer"?

11 A There were people who said, "No, we don't

12 want to help the campaign," sure.

13 Q Were there any people who were willing to

14 help the campaign but they didn't want to try to

15 become a Pioneer?

16 A I don't know. I mean, the purpose was to

17 get people to help the campaign.

18 Q Do you know of any particular individual

19 who was approached to become a Pioneer and stated

20 they didn't want to try to become a Pioneer?

21 A I don't remember any specific person that

22 we -- I mean, we asked people to help the campaign.








1 I am sure some of them helped us, helped other

2 candidates.

3 Q Of those who you reached out to become

4 Pioneers, did any say why they agreed to try to

5 become a Pioneer?

6 A Yes, because they believed in this man and

7 his vision for America.

8 Q Who said that to you?

9 A Many people.

10 Q Can you name some?

11 A I'm thinking. Mercer Reynolds.

12 Q Who is Mercer Reynolds?

13 A He's a long-time friend of the president.

14 Q And you reached out to him specifically?

15 A He wanted the president to run.

16 Q So did you call Mr. Reynolds?

17 A I called Mercer Reynolds.

18 Q In terms of your reaching out to him with

19 respect the Pioneer program?

20 A I called him to help us.

21 Q And you discussed the Pioneer program with

22 him?








1 A I'm sure we had a conversation about the

2 Pioneer program.

3 Q But you can't remember it?

4 A I can't remember a specific.

5 Q Okay. So I'm going to back up to my

6 original question. I asked you when you engaged in

7 reaching out to people who you wanted to become

8 Pioneers, I asked you why it is they agreed to it,

9 and you said because they believed in this man and

10 his vision.

11 A Right.

12 Q Then I asked you who told you that, who

13 said that?

14 A People all across the country told me that.

15 Q Please name some.

16 A Karen Johnson.

17 Q Who is Karen Johnson?

18 A A friend of ours from Texas.

19 Q How did you have that first contact with

20 Karen Johnson to discuss the Pioneer program?

21 A She volunteered to help the campaign.

22 Q How did you find out she volunteered to








1 help the campaign?

2 A She called us.

3 Q And you took the call?

4 A I'm sure I talked. I don't know if I was

5 the first person she talked to, but I talked to her,

6 yes.

7 Q So you called her?

8 A I don't remember if she called me or I

9 called her.

10 Q In that phone conversation what did you

11 say?

12 A I said, "We need your help."

13 Q Did you discuss the Pioneer program?

14 A I'm sure we did discuss the Pioneer

15 program.

16 Q But you can't remember?

17 A I cannot remember.

18 Q Mr. Oliver, one thing that's going to

19 happen here is that we are either going to be able to

20 wrap sooner or we are going to have to go a whole lot

21 more time.

22 What I have just been talking about is your








1 specific efforts to reach out to Pioneers, and you've

2 acknowledged, you stated under oath that you did

3 engage in reaching out to people to try to get them

4 to become Pioneers. You said you participated in

5 that process.

6 A I said I asked people to help us.

7 MR. BURCHFIELD: Wait a minute.

8 Mr. Bonifaz, if you've got questions ask

9 them, but you don't have to lecture the witness.

10 You're asking him, as best I can ascertain,

11 questions about conversations that I would expect

12 that certainly happened two years or so ago, and if

13 he can't remember the specifics of those

14 conversations that would certainly not be unusual in

15 human experience.

16 I don't have any reason to think he's not

17 trying to answer your questions. But you don't need

18 to lecture him about how it is going to take a lot

19 longer if he's unable to answer your questions.

20 MR. BONIFAZ: Mr. Burchfield, just for the

21 record, Mr. Oliver has stated I think now three times

22 that he remembers very clearly what people told him








1 when they agreed to try to become a Pioneer. They

2 believed in candidate Bush as a man and his vision.

3 He has a very clear recollection of what

4 people told him when they agreed from to try become a

5 Pioneer.

6 What is difficult for me to understand is

7 when we get to who those people were that told him

8 that and then we get to whether or not it was a

9 conversation about the Pioneers it all becomes fuzzy

10 again.

11 So I'm trying to just simple get down the

12 road and finish this line of questioning.

13 MR. BURCHFIELD: There may be something in

14 what you just said that I agree with in terms of the

15 characterization of this record, but I can't right at

16 this point point to something that I would agree

17 with.

18 But it does seem to me, as I listened to

19 the testimony, what he's saying is that a lot of

20 people told him that they believed in and agreed with

21 the vision being set forth by Governor Bush for the

22 campaign.








1 Frankly, it would not surprise me if people

2 who became Pioneers and people who didn't become

3 Pioneers told him that, and it also wouldn't surprise

4 me if he can't cite to you chapter and verse, date

5 and individuals when those conversations occurred.

6 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm just asking him to cite

7 some.

8 MR. BURCHFIELD: You have asked him that

9 repeatedly, he's tried. He has given you two names,

10 and you don't seem to be satisfied with those two

11 names.

12 MR. BONIFAZ: When I talked talk about the

13 two names and then he tells me, well, he doesn't

14 remember talking about the Pioneers.

15 MR. BURCHFIELD: If you want to ask him

16 further specific questions, feel free to do so.

17 But the point I'm making is I don't have

18 any objection with you continuing asking these

19 questions.

20 I'm not sure they are particularly

21 productive, but that's your call many.

22 What I don't think is appropriate is for








1 you to lecture him about whether his answers are

2 acceptable to you or not.

3 I think he's trying to do the best he can

4 based upon conversations that happened two or three

5 years ago.

6 So, please, if you have further questions

7 ask him but don't lecture him.


9 Q How many of the Pioneers, Mr. Oliver, are

10 people who attempted to become Pioneers knew

11 candidate Bush prior to making that attempt?

12 MR. BURCHFIELD: Object; foundation.

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer to

14 that question.


16 Q Do you know any specific candidates who

17 knew candidate Bush before they signed up to join

18 Pioneer program?

19 A Sure.

20 Q You name some?

21 A Mercer Reynolds, Craig Stapleton, Jim

22 Francis, Heinz Precter.








1 Q I'm sorry. The last one?

2 A Heinz Precter.

3 Q How to do you spell that name?

4 A H-e-i-n-z P-r-e-c-t-e-r.

5 Karen Johnson. You'd have to give me a

6 list to go over, but a lot of people from Texas knew

7 him prior to.

8 Q Did you reach out to all of those people

9 you just specified?

10 A No, sir. A lot of those people were

11 already involved -- I mean, those people already

12 indicated they wanted to help.

13 Brad Freeman is another example.

14 Q But you did reach out to Mercer Reynolds

15 and Karen Johnson?

16 A I had multiple conversations with both of

17 them.

18 Q You were the one who specifically reached

19 out to them on the Pioneer program?

20 MR. BURCHFIELD: Objection. You are

21 mischaracterizing his testimony.

22 You asked him. The earlier question was








1 can you name me some Pioneers who knew Governor Bush

2 before they became Pioneers?

3 The your next question was, so you reached

4 out to them?

5 MR. BONIFAZ: We talked earlier about

6 Mercer Reynolds and Karen Johnson. They were named

7 earlier in a separate line of questioning as to

8 people he specifically talked with.

9 MR. BURCHFIELD: The record will be what

10 the record is, but I do think you are maybe

11 mischaracterizing his testimony.

12 In any event, please go forward.

13 THE WITNESS: While you are talking I'm

14 going to take a quick bathroom break.

15 MR. BONIFAZ: That's fine.

16 (Recessed at 4:08 p.m.)

17 (Reconvened at 4:10 p.m.)


19 Q Mr. Oliver, what proportion of Pioneers and

20 people trying to become pioneers were approached by

21 the campaign and what proportion approached the

22 campaigns themselves, more or less?








1 A I would say an overwhelming majority

2 approached us.

3 Q And they approached the campaign to become

4 a Pioneer?

5 A No, they approached the campaign wanting to

6 help. They wanted to help it, help the campaign.

7 Q I will just repeat the question so we are

8 both clear on it.

9 A Okay.

10 Q What proportion of Pioneers and people

11 trying to become Pioneers were approached by the

12 campaign and what proportion of those individuals

13 approached who wanted to become Pioneers approached

14 the campaign itself?

15 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to form; asked

16 and answered.

17 You may answer it again.

18 THE WITNESS: An overwhelming majority of

19 people who ended up becoming Pioneers approached the

20 campaign to help.


22 Q They didn't know about the Pioneer program








1 when they approached?

2 MR. BURCHFIELD: Object to form and

3 foundation.

4 THE WITNESS: I don't know if they did or

5 not. I don't know.


7 Q But your testimony is an overwhelming

8 number of people came approached the help without

9 necessarily specifying they wanted to become

10 Pioneers?

11 A To help, yes.

12 Q So how did they learn about the Pioneer

13 program?

14 A They may have heard about it from me. They

15 may have read about it from the newspaper. I don't

16 know. But it wasn't something we hid.

17 Q And were they given any promises with

18 respect to their involvement as a Pioneer?

19 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to form.

20 THE WITNESS: Promises of what?


22 Q Promises of access to the campaign,








1 promises of meetings, promises of special letters or

2 information to them. Were they given any kind of

3 promises?

4 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to form.

5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by

6 promises.

7 If you mean by promises did we tell them

8 that we were going to recognize the Pioneers as a

9 program, I think the answer is yes. There wasn't

10 anything specific beyond that.


12 Q Were they ever told they would be if they

13 got the Pioneer status listed as a Pioneer in certain

14 campaign documents?

15 A I don't know whether we indicated that to

16 them or not. We released those names to the press.

17 Q What was the purpose of releasing those

18 names to the press?

19 A It wasn't my decision. It was decided by

20 the press operation. I don't know what the purpose

21 was.

22 Q You have no idea what the purpose was?








1 A I don't remember or I don't remember or

2 recall the conversation that would have occurred with

3 regard to this.

4 Q Were those who were participating in the

5 Pioneer program aware that their names would be made

6 public?

7 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to foundation.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I think so,

9 but I don't remember.


11 Q You testified earlier with regards to the

12 RNC that there was a category $25 donors; is that

13 right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And for $25 donors, were they ever offered

16 the same set of photo opportunities that the Pioneers

17 were?

18 MR. BURCHFIELD: I object to form and

19 foundation.

20 THE WITNESS: Explain what you mean.


22 Q You testified earlier about photo








1 opportunities that Pioneers were sometimes able to

2 get with a candidate as one aspect of the program.

3 I'm asking now whether the $25 donors were

4 given that same set of opportunities as the Pioneers

5 were?

6 A It depends on what -- I mean, yes, there

7 were opportunities for people to get pictures taken

8 with him. I mean, some of them were involved in the

9 political piece of it. Political people got their

10 picture taken with him. He took pictures with people

11 all over the country.

12 Q Were the $25 donors invited to that

13 reception you discussed at the convention?

14 A If they were a Pioneer.

15 Q If they weren't a Pioneer they weren't

16 invited?

17 A No.

18 Q Why not?

19 A Because think weren't a Pioneer.

20 Q To your knowledge, did anyone find out

21 about the reception and want to go who wasn't a

22 Pioneer?








1 A I don't know.

2 Q How many $25 donors were Pioneers?

3 A I don't know the answer to the that

4 question.


6 Q Do you know of any $25 donors who were

7 Pioneers?

8 A I don't know.

9 Q I would like to return to the tracking

10 system that you discussed and try to better

11 understand it, Mr. Oliver.

12 Just to refresh what you said, this was not

13 something you created, the tracking system; somebody

14 else in the campaign, did; is that right, or did you

15 create the tracking system?

16 A I don't remember who actually created it.

17 I don't remember who actually created it. I knew

18 about it, but I don't think I was the person who came

19 up with the idea.

20 Q How were the amounts tracked?

21 A What do you mean amounts?

22 Q That people were raising.








1 A If there was an event on the card that came

2 back with the event, they had a place for the

3 tracking number to be put on it.

4 Q What else would be on that card?

5 A The other information the Federal Election

6 Commission wanted.

7 Q Was it put into some kind of computer

8 system? How did the tracking system work?

9 A I think it was put into a computer system,

10 but I don't know the specifics of the administrative

11 piece of it.

12 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm sorry.

13 THE WITNESS: That's fine.

14 (Mr. Bonifaz and Ms. Danetz conferred).

15 MR. BONIFAZ: Mr. Oliver, we have no

16 further questions for this deposition.

17 (Whereupon, at 4:23 p.m., the deposition

18 was concluded.)












1 I HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read this

2 transcript of my deposition and that this transcript

3 accurately states the testimony given by me, with the

4 changes or corrections, if any, as noted.



7 X





12 Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of

13 , 20 .




17 X

18 Notary Public


20 My commission expires: .










1 C O N T E N T S




5 by Mr. Mogilnicki 5

6 by Mr. Bonifaz 260


8 E X H I B I T S



11 Oliver 1 108

12 Oliver 2 125

13 Oliver 3 163

14 Oliver 4 192

15 Oliver 5 199

16 Oliver 6 201

17 Oliver 7 208

18 Oliver 8 217

19 Oliver 9 221

20 Oliver 10 227

21 Oliver 11 235

22 -- Continued --








1 Oliver 12 239

2 Oliver 13 248

3 Oliver 14 254

4 Oliver 15 261