1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2
------------------------x
3 VICTORIA JACKSON GRAY, : No. 02-cv-754-KLH-CKK-RJL
ADAMS et al., : No. 02-cv-781-KLH-CKK-RJL
4 : No. 02-cv-874-KLH-CKK-RJL
Plaintiffs, : No. 02-cv-875-KLH-CKK-RJL
5 : No. 02-cv-881-KLH-CKK-RJL
v. : No. 02-cv-877-KLH-CKK-RJL
6 : No. 02-cv-582-KLH-CKK-RJL
THE FEDERAL ELECTION : No. 02-cv-581-KLH-CKK-RJL
7 COMMISSION et al., : No. 02-cv-633-KLH-CKK-RJL
: No. 02-cv-751-KLH-CKK-RJL
8 Defendants. : No. 02-cv-753-KLH-CKK-RJL
------------------------x
9
Washington, D.C.
10
Monday, September 30, 2002
11
12 Deposition of
13 JOHN L. OLIVER, III
14 a Rule 30(b)6 witness on behalf of Bush for
15 President, Inc., called for examination by counsel
16 for the Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and
17 agreement of counsel, beginning at approximately
18 4:45 p.m., at the law offices of Covington &
19 Burling, 1201 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW., Washington,
20 D.C., before Lauri M. Ploch of Beta Reporting &
21 Videography Services, notary public in and for the
22 District of Columbia, when were present on behalf
BETA REPORTING
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1 of the respective parties:
2 APPEARANCES:
3 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
4 JOHN C. BONIFAZ, ESQUIRE
LISA J. DANETZ, ESQUIRE
5 National Voting Rights Institute
One Bromfeld Street, Third Floor
6 Boston, Massachusetts 02108
(617) 368-9100
7
On behalf of Defendant Intervenors:
8
MONICA P. MEDINA, ESQUIRE
9 Heller Ehrman White & McAuliffe, L.L.P.
1660 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
10 Washington, D.C. 20006-1228
(202) 912-2000
11
On behalf of RNC and State Parties of
12 Ohio, Colorado and New Mexico:
13 BENJAMIN L. GINSBERG, ESQUIRE
MITCHELL R. BERGER, ESQUIRE
14 Patton Boggs, L.L.P.
2550 M Street, N.W.
15 Washington, D.C. 20037-1350
(202) 457-6000
16
On behalf of The Attorney General of
17 the United States:
18 TERRY M. HENRY, ESQUIRE
Federal Programs Branch
19 Civil Division
United States Department of Justice
20 901 E Street, N.W., Room 942
Washington, D.C. 20004
21 (202) 514-4107
22 * * * * *
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1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Defendant Intervenors 4
4 Counsel for Plaintiffs 32
5 * Proceedings transcribed form page 127 to
page 149 designated CONFIDENTIAL -
6 ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY and bound separately
per request.
7
BFP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
8
No. 1 - Notice of Substitute Deposition 33
9
No. 2 - Adams Personal Information Form 39
10
No. 3 - Cook Personal Information Form 85
11
No. 4 - January 4, 2000, Facsimile 108
12
No. 5 - Updated List of Pioneers 126
13
No. 6 - Invitation 132
14
No. 7 - Updated Confirmed Meetings 143
15
16
* * * * *
17
18
19
20
21
22
BETA REPORTING
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 Whereupon,
3 JOHN L. OLIVER, III
4 was called as a witness and, having been
5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
6 as follows:
7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT
8 INTERVENORS
9 BY MS. MEDINA:
10 Q Mr. Oliver, my name is Monica
11 Medina. I'm a lawyer with Heller Ehrman,
12 and I am one of the lawyers working for the
13 defendant intervenors in the case.
14 Do you know who those are?
15 A No, but that's okay. Who do you
16 represent?
17 Q I represent Senators McCain and
18 Feingold, Snowe, Jeffords, Congressman
19 Shays, the folks who were the main sponsors
20 of the Act.
21 When I say the word BICRA, do you
22 understand what that is?
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1 A No, I don't.
2 Q That's the Bipartison Campaign
3 Finance Reform Act that's the subject of
4 this lawsuit.
5 A Okay.
6 Q Good. I'm glad we cleared that
7 up. My purpose in talking with you today is
8 about your role in the Bush for President
9 campaign and Bush-Cheney 2000 campaigns.
10 Have I got the names of the
11 campaigns correct?
12 A Bush for President, primary.
13 Bush-Cheney, general, yes.
14 Q Bush-Cheney. Okay, thank you. My
15 questions have to do with the interactions
16 between the Bush-Cheney and perhaps
17 sometimes the Bush for President campaign
18 and the RNC. So it may be that you are
19 aware of those interactions -- it may not
20 be -- given your job in the Bush for
21 President and then Bush-Cheney campaign?
22 MR. BERGER: May I just respond to
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1 that before you go further?
2 MS. MEDINA: Yes, of course.
3 MR. BERGER: I'm not aware of a
4 cross notice for this deposition having been
5 served by the defendants intervenors, and
6 the subject as you've described it is
7 outside the scope of his 30(b)(6) notice.
8 MS. MEDINA: Well, I'm sorry if I
9 didn't see the scope of the 30(b)(6) notice.
10 If you could explain to me how it would be
11 outside the scope.
12 MR. BERGER: I haven't heard your
13 question yet, but there's nothing in this
14 notice that deals with the relationship
15 between the RNC and any of the Bush
16 campaigns.
17 MS. MEDINA: Well, as you know,
18 the notices of these depositions have been
19 going out late and they haven't been easy to
20 keep up with, so perhaps I've got the wrong
21 scope.
22 MR. BERGER: Well, unfortunately
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1 mine are all marked up with my notes. I
2 know you don't want to be reading my work
3 product.
4 MR. BONIFAZ: We are getting
5 copies.
6 MR. BERGER: The short answer is
7 that it's unfortunately not my problem nor
8 the witness's problem if you haven't seen
9 the deposition notice or if your subjects
10 are outside the scope. I've produced this
11 witness as to the limited negotiated scopes
12 of testimony and what you've described is
13 outside the scope.
14 MS. MEDINA: Well, why don't we
15 see if some of the questions will be within
16 the scope.
17 MR. BERGER: Sure, I will be happy
18 to take it on a question-by-question basis.
19 MS. DANETZ: I just found an
20 unmarked deposition notice. This is the
21 Schedule A. It's two pages.
22 MS. MEDINA: That will help me.
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1 So it only had to do with finances?
2 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
3 MS. MEDINA: Well, that will
4 shorten my questions.
5 BY MS. MEDINA:
6 Q Can you tell me whether the
7 Pioneers were given background information
8 about then Governor Bush?
9 A I'm sorry, what do you mean by
10 background?
11 Q Let me start again. Strike it.
12 Did the Bush-Cheney campaign meet
13 with the Pioneers from time to time?
14 A What do you mean by Bush-Cheney
15 campaign? In the general election?
16 Q Yes. In the general election, did
17 officials from the Bush-Cheney campaign meet
18 with the Pioneers as a group?
19 A I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember.
20 I don't remember a specific
21 instance but there may have been one.
22 Q Were the Pioneers given any
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1 information that they could use to raise
2 funds from other individuals about the Bush
3 champaign, the Bush-Cheney campaign?
4 A The Pioneers was about the Bush
5 for President campaign.
6 Q Only Bush for President?
7 A Yeah. It was in the general
8 election. The Bush-Cheney campaign could
9 not take contributions. As the law
10 dictates, in a general election mode, when
11 you take the federal government's money, you
12 don't raise resources for the general
13 election personally, as an election body,
14 entity.
15 Q Well, then let's go back.
16 Did the Bush campaign give the
17 Pioneers information that they could use to
18 raise funds from other individuals for the
19 Bush campaign?
20 A What kind of information? Bio
21 information?
22 Q Well, I guess I'm asking you that
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1 question. Biographical information or
2 information that might help solicit the
3 donations, that might help interest other
4 individuals in giving the donations.
5 A I'm sure we had a bio on then
6 Governor Bush that we made available if
7 people had questions about it and then
8 wanted copies of it.
9 Q Were there any other pieces of
10 information or brochures?
11 MR. BERGER: Outside the scope of
12 the notice, but if you can answer, go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm
14 trying to understand what you mean by
15 brochure.
16 BY MS. MEDINA:
17 Q Let me go back. The Pioneers were
18 asked to donate money themselves, yes?
19 A Sure.
20 Q In addition to donating money of
21 their own, they solicited donations from
22 other individuals, yes?
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1 MR. BERGER: Object to the form.
2 It's leading. It's a third-party witness.
3 MS. MEDINA: You are right.
4 BY MS. MEDINA:
5 Q Were the Pioneers ever asked or
6 did they ever solicit contributions from
7 other individuals?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When they went about soliciting
10 contributions from other individuals, what
11 did the Bush champaign give them, the
12 Pioneers, to assist them in soliciting
13 information, or contributions, from other
14 individuals?
15 A In terms of paper?
16 Q Sure. Paper or briefings in
17 person, or telephone calls that might
18 have --
19 A I'm sorry. We had a web site that
20 had information on it for people to go to if
21 they had questions. Then Governor had a lot
22 of public appearances that was on national
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1 television or state TV or newspaper
2 articles. They were all publicly available
3 for view.
4 Q What was on the web site, do you
5 remember?
6 A I think there were -- to the best
7 of my knowledge it was -- I think there were
8 bios on the Governor and Mrs. Bush, and then
9 all the press releases that we had sent out
10 I think were on the web site. I also think
11 that speeches that the Governor gave were
12 also on the web site, but I can't be sure of
13 that without reviewing it.
14 Q When the Bush campaign solicited
15 donations from the Pioneers, did you use any
16 printed brochures or other types of
17 information?
18 A Well, what we had, if we were
19 soliciting people to come to an event, there
20 would have been an invitation for an event
21 or a direct mail fund raising letter that
22 would have been sent out.
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1 Q Who did the direct mail fund
2 raising letters for the Bush campaign?
3 MR. BERGER: Objection, outside
4 the scope of the notice, but go ahead and
5 answer it, if you can.
6 MS. MEDINA: The witness raised
7 it.
8 THE WITNESS: When you say "do,"
9 what do you mean?
10 BY MS. MEDINA:
11 Q Which consultant or which vendor
12 helped to produce the direct mail fund
13 raising letters?
14 A Olson and Delisi was the company.
15 Q Did the Century Strategies assist
16 at all in the direct mail?
17 A I don't remember if they ever did
18 a direct mail fund raising piece for us.
19 They may have but I don't remember.
20 Q Was Ralph Reed involved in any of
21 the fund raising or direct mail pieces for
22 the Pioneers?
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1 MR. BERGER: At this point I'm
2 going to object. This is outside the scope
3 of the notice. Your colleague representing
4 the defendants intervenors had the
5 opportunity to examine Mr. Oliver
6 individually at length this morning. I
7 assume there's some level of coordination
8 between you. If you had questions that you
9 wanted to ask of him in his individual
10 capacity, you should have had your
11 colleagues ask those questions. So I would
12 suggest we move on to another subject.
13 MS. MEDINA: Well, I guess I
14 thought I was here to have the opportunity
15 to depose a 30(b)(6) witness from the Bush
16 champaign, Bush-Cheney campaign. I wasn't
17 aware that in his individual capacity
18 Mr. Oliver wouldn't be able to answer those
19 questions, because I understood him to be
20 here representing himself in his current
21 capacity as deputy director or deputy
22 chair -- I'm sorry if I've got the title
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1 wrong -- of the RNC.
2 MR. BERGER: There's obviously
3 some miscommunication, but it's not on our
4 part. He is not here for all the purposes
5 as a 30(b)(6) representative of either the
6 primary campaign, Bush for President, Inc.,
7 or the general campaign, Bush-Cheney 2000.
8 He is here for very limited
9 purposes. Your questions are outside that
10 scope. However, we could have avoided that
11 problem had defendants intervenor asked him
12 that question in his individual capacity.
13 That deposition is closed, because your
14 colleagues, representing the same clients,
15 asked their questions and rested, so we are
16 done with that.
17 The man has been here since 8:00
18 this morning, so let's move on to subjects
19 that are within the scope of the notice.
20 MS. MEDINA: I believe we are
21 asking about how the Pioneers solicited
22 funds from their donors. We started down
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1 the road of direct mail, which was one way
2 in which they solicited funds from their
3 donors, and now I'm asking about vendors,
4 direct mail vendors, who might have been
5 involved in preparing the letters, the
6 direct mail fund raising letters, that were
7 used to solicit the Pioneers and other
8 donors.
9 MR. BERGER: I don't see how it's
10 within the scope of the notice. If you can
11 tell me, I'm happy to reconsider.
12 MS. MEDINA: Well, can I look at
13 the notice again? Thank you. It's about
14 communications between Bush-Cheney and the
15 Pioneers or between the Bush campaign and
16 the Pioneers. This witness just testified
17 that Bush-Cheney didn't communicate with the
18 Pioneers because they couldn't.
19 MR. BERGER: Right. I agree with
20 that part. He certainly said that. Your
21 question was about Ralph Reed. I don't hear
22 anything about communications between either
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1 of the campaigns and the Pioneers when you
2 ask a question about Ralph Reed.
3 MS. MEDINA: If Mr. Reed was the
4 author of any of the communications between
5 the campaign and the Pioneers.
6 MR. BERGER: I see, your question
7 lacks foundation. You haven't established
8 that Mr. Reed had anything to do with the
9 campaign.
10 MS. MEDINA: That's what I'm
11 trying to do, establish whether he might
12 have, whether or not he did, and if he did,
13 I'll ask the next question. I can't ask
14 that question until I have the foundation,
15 and that's why I'm asking the question.
16 MR. BERGER: Ask the question.
17 MS. MEDINA: Can we go back to see
18 what the question is? I think the witness
19 and I both can't remember it.
20 (The reporter read the record as
21 requested.)
22 THE WITNESS: I don't think Ralph
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1 Reed himself was involved -- his company was
2 involved. Ralph Reed was involved because
3 he was a Pioneer, but I don't think he
4 produced letters that were used on a broad
5 base for the Pioneer solicitations.
6 BY MS. MEDINA:
7 Q To your knowledge, was the
8 Christian Coalition involved in assisting
9 the Bush champaign in soliciting funds from
10 the Pioneers?
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q Was former First Lady Barbara Bush
13 involved in any solicitations of the
14 Pioneers?
15 MR. BERGER: As an agent of the
16 campaign?
17 MS. MEDINA: As an agent of the
18 campaign.
19 THE WITNESS: I think she may have
20 signed a direct mail piece that went out to
21 the entire list but it wasn't Pioneer
22 specific.
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1 BY MS. MEDINA:
2 Q It wasn't Pioneer specific. Was
3 the current First Lady, Laura Bush, ever
4 involved in fund raising to the Pioneers or
5 for the Pioneers?
6 A The First Lady of Texas at the
7 time also signed a piece of direct mail
8 solicitation that went to the entire file
9 but it was not Pioneer specific.
10 Q So the Pioneers received direct
11 mail solicitations --
12 MR. BERGER: Let her finish the
13 question.
14 BY MS. MEDINA:
15 Q No, go ahead. Did the Pioneers
16 receive direct mail solicitations?
17 A I don't know. If they had given
18 the maximum by law, they probably were taken
19 off the list that we were soliciting.
20 Q Once they became Pioneers, did the
21 Pioneers receive regular e-mails or direct
22 mail letters updating them on the campaign,
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1 on how the campaign was proceeding?
2 A We sent communications to people
3 kind of updating them, broad-based, to a lot
4 of people, yes.
5 Q How many Pioneers were there?
6 A I don't know the exact number. I
7 think it's roughly 220? I don't know the
8 exact number.
9 Q How much did you have to
10 contribute to become a Pioneer?
11 A We didn't have to contribute
12 anything.
13 Q Okay, what was the criteria for
14 becoming a Pioneer?
15 A You were raising resources.
16 Q I see. So how much did you have
17 to raise to become a Pioneer?
18 A $100,000. $100,000.
19 Q There were 220 individuals who
20 raised $100,000 or more?
21 A In individual $1,000 or less
22 contributions, yes.
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1 Q Did these Pioneers who raised this
2 money receive any other special benefits for
3 being a Pioneer?
4 MR. BERGER: Object to the form.
5 You may answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Can you say that
7 again, please?
8 BY MS. MEDINA:
9 Q Did the Pioneers receive any other
10 special benefits because they were Pioneers?
11 MR. BERGER: Mischaracterizes his
12 testimony to the extent you are
13 suggesting --
14 MS. MEDINA: Any benefits.
15 MR. BERGER: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: They had
17 opportunities to have their picture taken at
18 events when we were in various cities that
19 they were involved in. As I testified,
20 there were instances where we had a special
21 event, at the convention.
22 BY MS. MEDINA:
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1 Q Did they have opportunities to
2 meet with you?
3 A Sure.
4 Q How often did you meet with the
5 Pioneers?
6 A As a group or as individuals?
7 Q Well, let's start with as a group.
8 A I don't remember how many times we
9 met together as a group. I don't think it
10 was many. Probably less than three or four.
11 Q What happened at those meetings
12 when you had the group together?
13 A Update on what was happening in
14 the campaign.
15 Q How specific were the updates?
16 A In what sense?
17 Q About what was happening in the
18 campaign. Did you give them polling
19 information?
20 A We did. There were presentations
21 on polls, yes.
22 Q Did you give them information
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1 about target or battleground states?
2 A Sure.
3 Q Did you give them information
4 about the upcoming messages or events that
5 the Governor, then Governor, would be
6 attending?
7 A You mean like did we give them
8 where the scheduled fund raisers were?
9 Q Yes, or speeches, or rallies.
10 A Sure.
11 Q Did you give them information that
12 you didn't make available to the general
13 public?
14 A I'm sure there's instances where
15 we shared polling information that was not
16 publicly available.
17 Q At that time?
18 A At that time.
19 Q Did you give them information
20 about where you were concerned about then
21 Governor Bush's ability to do well in the
22 primaries?
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1 MR. BERGER: Objection, lacks
2 foundation, but you may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't
4 understand what you mean by that, "do well."
5 BY MS. MEDINA:
6 Q Did you give them information
7 about primaries where you thought Governor
8 Bush might not win?
9 A That information was publicly
10 available. There were national polls and
11 news coverage that kind of laid that out for
12 people.
13 Q I understand that they may have
14 learned it from other places, but did you
15 talk about it with them?
16 A Did we talk to them about how we
17 were ahead in the campaign?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Places where Governor Bush might
21 be trailing at the time?
22 A I cannot say that we did not have
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1 that conversation at some point in time, or
2 we indicated where we were behind and when
3 we were ahead.
4 Q Let me turn your attention -- may
5 I see the list again? One second.
6 Can you tell me whether or not you
7 personally had any discussions with one of
8 the Pioneers named Charles Wyly?
9 A Charles? Discussions about what?
10 Q Did you talk with him?
11 A There were instances that I've
12 talked to Charlie, Charlie Wyly, yes.
13 Q Did you talk with him during the
14 campaign? You may have talked with him
15 since then, but I'm really talking about
16 during the campaign.
17 A I'm sure there were events that he
18 was at that I was at that I may have said
19 hello to him. I don't remember a
20 substantive conversation with Charles Wyly.
21 Q Did he have regular contact with a
22 campaign that you know of?
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1 MR. BERGER: Objection, ambiguous,
2 but you may answer.
3 BY MS. MEDINA:
4 Q Did he talk to the campaign on a
5 monthly basis?
6 A He may have. I would be the
7 person he would talk to, and I don't
8 remember having a monthly conversation with
9 him.
10 Q Would you be the only person that
11 he might talk to?
12 A I don't know whom else -- I mean,
13 I'm sure he had the ability to talk to other
14 people, but I would be the likely person
15 that he would have called.
16 Q Could he have talked to other
17 people on your staff?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Why would you be the likely person
20 that he would have had contact with?
21 A Because I was the national finance
22 director and he was helping us to raise
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1 resources.
2 Q Do you recall any specific time
3 periods where you talked to him?
4 A I remember talking to him at the
5 kickoff.
6 Q When was that?
7 A The 7th -- I'm trying to remember.
8 The 7th of -- I think was at the 7th of
9 March event. He may not have been. I
10 remember talking to him early because we
11 were geared up, ready to roll.
12 Q What kind of things did he want to
13 talk about?
14 MR. BERGER: Objection. That's
15 outside the scope. There are two subjects
16 here under communications. One is
17 contributions and the other is policy.
18 BY MS. MEDINA:
19 Q Did he want to talk about policy?
20 A Not with me. Not with me.
21 Q He didn't talk about policy with
22 you?
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1 A No.
2 Q Might he have talked about policy
3 with anyone else within the campaign?
4 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
5 speculation.
6 THE WITNESS: I don't know the
7 answer.
8 BY MS. MEDINA:
9 Q Are you familiar with the group
10 Republicans for Clean Air?
11 MR. BERGER: Objection. It's
12 outside the scope of the notice, but you may
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I don't
15 have a specific memory about that group.
16 BY MS. MEDINA:
17 Q How did you meet Mr. Wyly?
18 A I think I met him at an event in
19 Dallas.
20 Q What do you know about his
21 background?
22 A He was in support of Governor Bush
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1 in his campaigns for Governor.
2 Q Did you know anything else about
3 his background? Do you now know?
4 A Yeah, I do. I by now know --
5 Q You can't remember what you knew
6 then?
7 A I don't know what I knew then. I
8 knew he was a former supporter of the
9 Governor, but I didn't know exactly what
10 business specifically he was in.
11 Q Can you tell me what you know
12 about his background?
13 A That he was a supporter of the
14 Governor's, when the Governor ran for
15 governor.
16 Q Do you know what business he was
17 in?
18 A I think he was in the energy
19 business, but I'm not positive about that.
20 Q So you definitely remember having
21 contact with him in March of 1996?
22 A March or April, yeah, in that time
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1 period.
2 Q What was that contact, do you
3 remember?
4 A Just I think I called him and
5 introduced myself.
6 MR. BERGER: You said '96.
7 MS. MEDINA: I mean 2000. I'm
8 sorry.
9 THE WITNESS: Ninety-nine, it was
10 in '99.
11 BY MS. MEDINA:
12 Q Oh, I see, March of '99.
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q Then how often might you have
15 talked to him after that?
16 A Infrequently, maybe a couple more
17 times throughout the campaign, if I saw him
18 at an event.
19 Q He was one of the earlier
20 Pioneers?
21 A I don't remember whether he became
22 a Pioneer. He was a long-time supporter of
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1 the Governor's.
2 Q I think you said before you
3 remembered talking with him early on?
4 A I did remember talking with him
5 early on, but I don't know when he achieved
6 Pioneer status, which is what you just asked
7 me.
8 Q I see.
9 MR. BERGER: You are getting good
10 at this.
11 MS. MEDINA: Who is, he or me?
12 MR. BERGER: He has got the
13 objections down. He has been doing this all
14 day. I'm going to leave now.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to fall
16 asleep now.
17 MS. MEDINA: I think I'm done,
18 actually. Because of the scope, I don't
19 think I can ask any of my other questions,
20 so I will conclude with that.
21 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we take a
22 one-minute break and I can explain what is
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1 happening here?
2 (Recess)
3 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
4 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
5 Q Sir, just to start things off, can
6 you please state your full name for the
7 record?
8 A John Leachman Oliver, III.
9 MR. BONIFAZ: For the purpose of
10 this transcript, Mr. Oliver, my name is John
11 Bonifaz. I'm the director of the National
12 Voting Rights Institute based in Boston.
13 Lisa Danetz is an attorney at the Institute,
14 and together we are going to be asking you
15 questions at this deposition.
16 We are co-counsel for the Adams
17 plaintiffs, which is the case Adams, et al.,
18 v FEC, et al., which is the case challenging
19 the increase in the hard money limits, one
20 of the 11 consolidated cases challenging
21 certain provisions of the Bipartison
22 Campaign Reform Act.
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1 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 1
2 was marked for identification.)
3 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
4 Q You have in front of you what has
5 been marked BFP Exhibit No. 1. This is an
6 exhibit to highlight the terms of this
7 deposition. This is a Notice of Substitute
8 Deposition under Rules 30(b)(6) and 45 of
9 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
10 I would like to turn your
11 attention to page three, Schedule A, which
12 identifies the subject matters of this
13 deposition.
14 First, are you aware of what
15 a 30(b)(6) deposition is?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What is your understanding of what
18 it is?
19 A I don't know the legal
20 terminology, but that I am testifying on
21 behalf of the campaign.
22 Q You are here to testify on both
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1 the behalf of the Bush for President, Inc.
2 campaign and Bush-Cheney 2000; is that
3 correct?
4 A That's my understanding, that is
5 correct.
6 Is that right?
7 MR. BERGER: That's correct.
8 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
9 Q You are here to testify on these
10 subject matters under Schedule A with the
11 understanding that Point No. 8 is in
12 contention. Is that also your
13 understanding?
14 MR. BERGER: I don't know if the
15 witness has been briefed on all of the back
16 and forth of the lawyers' bickering, for
17 lack of a better word.
18 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought it was
19 quite friendly.
20 MR. BERGER: It was, and
21 consistent with my friendly communication
22 with you, you took my suggestion and asked
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1 him in his individual capacity a number of
2 questions, all of which would fit within
3 that category, so I see we are proceeding as
4 predicted.
5 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
6 Q What I'm trying to establish is
7 whether you, Mr. Oliver, are aware that you
8 are here to testify on these subject matters
9 listed on Schedule A of this deposition
10 notice.
11 A You mean me as an individual or me
12 as a 30(b)(6)?
13 Q 30(b)(6) deponent.
14 A Yes, I'm aware of this.
15 Q What have you done to prepare
16 yourself to testify on these subject matters
17 today?
18 A I have talked with my counsel
19 about it in preparation for it.
20 Q Have you done any separate
21 investigation, research, to refresh your
22 recollection and be able to be prepared to
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1 answer questions on these subject areas?
2 A I've reviewed the documents that
3 my lawyers provided to you.
4 Q Have you done anything else?
5 MR. BERGER: Well, without getting
6 into the content of his communications with
7 lawyers, I'm happy to make the
8 representation on the record that we are
9 perfectly well aware of what 30(b)(6)
10 requires. This is a campaign that has not
11 been in active existence for nearly two
12 years, but yes, we have reached out to
13 people to the extent they can be found who
14 worked with him and for him, and we have
15 posed questions where they were not within
16 his individual knowledge.
17 MR. BONIFAZ: So just to be clear
18 here, when you say "we," that includes
19 Mr. Oliver?
20 MR. BERGER: Well, either
21 Mr. Oliver or people working with him. For
22 example, in preparing him, if he had
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1 questions that we could assist him in
2 answering, then we would make inquiries. He
3 is not obliged to make those inquiries
4 individually but to work with others.
5 MR. BONIFAZ: Some effort has been
6 made by you in conjunction with Mr. Oliver
7 to be able to answer questions on these
8 subject areas?
9 MR. BERGER: Yes. I mean, to the
10 extent there's information available on this
11 subject, he starts with a very strong base
12 of knowledge. He is currently the finance
13 director, and to the extent that others
14 worked for him or with him, we have made
15 inquiries to them and provided him the
16 answer.
17 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm going to turn
18 over Ms. Danetz to begin questioning on
19 these areas.
20 MR. BERGER: You mean I shouldn't
21 make my objection now that one counsel is
22 allowed to question the witness so we can
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1 move to strike everything that has been
2 asked?
3 MS. DANETZ: Are you going to make
4 that objection?
5 MR. BERGER: I don't think so, no.
6 MS. DANETZ: If you are going to
7 make that objection, then I will let John
8 continue.
9 For ease of reference I'm going to
10 just hand everybody a stack of the documents
11 that have been produced. That way I don't
12 have to fish through as I mark an exhibit.
13 I will also let you know the Bates number.
14 Also, for purposes of the record,
15 many of the documents that were produced
16 were labeled confidential, counsel only, and
17 should be so designated in the transcript.
18 I will, of course, let you know as I mark
19 each one.
20 MR. BERGER: We are going to hand
21 you one. You can look at them now.
22 THE WITNESS: I didn't know what
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1 we were doing.
2 MR. BERGER: Might as well take a
3 look at them now so you know what is coming.
4 MS. DANETZ: I am going to start
5 by reference to the documents numbered --
6 and you may want to write this down so you
7 can just refer to it -- BFP 4, BFP 7
8 through 299, and BFP 491.
9 I'm going to start by having BFP 4
10 marked as BFP Exhibit No. 2.
11 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 2
12 was marked for identification.)
13 BY MS. DANETZ:
14 Q Mr. Oliver, if you would, you may
15 want to look through the documents that I
16 identified for reference, because I don't
17 want to ask you something and have you think
18 that I'm misrepresenting, because I'm going
19 to be asking you about those documents.
20 A Let's pull aside the documents
21 that she is going to ask me about.
22 MR. BERGER: Four?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. BERGER: Seven through 299, if
3 I remember her correctly.
4 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
5 MR. BERGER: Which is more of
6 same.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 MS. DANETZ: I can represent
9 that 491 is a similar looking form with
10 different information.
11 MR. BERGER: Is there anything
12 more after 491?
13 MS. DANETZ: No, not for this set
14 of questions.
15 BY MS. DANETZ:
16 Q Can you tell me what the form that
17 I have now marked as BFP Exhibit 2 is?
18 A This is a solicitor tracking form.
19 Q What does that mean?
20 A It's a solicitor tracking form
21 that was given to an individual when they
22 signed up to be an authorized agent of the
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1 campaign.
2 Q It was given by Bush for
3 President?
4 A This individual form, yes. I
5 mean, yes, it was given by Bush or President
6 or Governor George W. Bush Presidential
7 Exploratory Committee.
8 Q It says George W. Bush
9 Presidential Exploratory Committee at the
10 top. Is that accurate?
11 A Yes, yes, it does.
12 Q Now, once the Exploratory
13 Committee, for lack of a better phrase,
14 segued into Bush for President, did Bush for
15 President continue to use this same form?
16 A I think that this -- the form --
17 there was a form that was used that was this
18 form. I'm not sure if it was this one or a
19 different variation of the form, but there
20 was a form that was used for solicitor
21 tracking numbers that would have contained
22 this information.
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1 Q It would have been substantially
2 similar information?
3 A Yes.
4 Q I don't want to mischaracterize
5 your testimony, but I'm just trying to
6 remember the answer you gave earlier where
7 you said this was a form that people filled
8 out when they signed up with the Pioneer
9 program; is that correct?
10 No, it's not correct?
11 A This is a form that was used when
12 people signed up to be agents of the
13 campaign and raise money on behalf of the
14 campaign.
15 Q So anybody who wanted to raise
16 money on behalf of the campaign would fill
17 out a form like this; is that true?
18 A Yes. Not anybody. Yes, people
19 that had called and said we want to raise
20 money for the campaign, we used this form to
21 sign them up to be agents of the campaign,
22 that's correct.
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1 Q So I just want to make sure I'm
2 understanding. So did all agents of the
3 campaign then fill out one of these forms?
4 A To the best of my knowledge,
5 everybody that we signed up to be an agent
6 filled out one of these forms, but I don't
7 know the answer to whether every single
8 person who raised money for the campaign
9 filed one.
10 Q But that was the practice?
11 A Yes, that was the practice.
12 Q Could you read for me what this
13 form says in the top right-hand corner?
14 MR. BERGER: In the spirit of
15 moving this along, there's really no point
16 in having the witness read you things we can
17 all agree on. You are asking him about the
18 solicitor tracking number?
19 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
20 MR. BERGER: What would you like
21 to know about the solicitor tracking number.
22 BY MS. DANETZ:
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1 Q In your personal deposition -- and
2 again, I'm not meaning to mischaracterize
3 your testimony at all, so feel free to
4 correct me if I do so mischaracterize it --
5 but in your personal deposition you
6 testified about tracking numbers that were
7 assigned to people in the Pioneer program;
8 is that true?
9 A I testified that there were
10 tracking numbers assigned to people who
11 wanted to become authorized agents of the
12 campaign and help the campaign. Some of
13 those people went on to be Pioneers, yes.
14 Q Is this an example of one of those
15 tracking numbers?
16 A This is an example of a tracking
17 number that was assigned to an individual,
18 yes.
19 Q In the documents that I have
20 identified for reference, which again are
21 BFP 4, BFP 7 through 299, and BFP 491, are
22 the numbers in the upper right-hand corner
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1 of those documents also the tracking numbers
2 that you have been referring to?
3 A They should be, but unless I look
4 at each one of them, I don't know the
5 answer. I think so.
6 MR. BERGER: In the spirit
7 of 30(b)(6) -- and the witness can correct
8 me if I've got this wrong -- what we
9 produced to you were the tracking forms
10 containing solicitor identification numbers
11 that were assigned to people who went on to
12 become Pioneers, so it is a subset of all of
13 the solicitor tracking forms signed by
14 authorized agents of the campaign, this
15 subset relating to Pioneers.
16 MS. DANETZ: Okay, great.
17 THE WITNESS: That's right. He
18 said it much more eloquently than I could.
19 MR. BERGER: If you want
20 collective information, we are here to give
21 you collective information.
22 MS. DANETZ: I have to say I am
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1 happy to have collective information as long
2 as you are representing it's from Bush for
3 President or Bush-Cheney 2000.
4 MR. BERGER: We are going to do
5 our level best to make sure you get that
6 information, whether it's from him or from
7 me.
8 (Discussion off the record)
9 BY MS. DANETZ:
10 Q Once somebody was an authorized
11 agent of the campaign and had a number, did
12 they indicate in some way that donations
13 were the result of their fund raising
14 efforts to the campaign?
15 A What do you mean by indicate?
16 Q In other words -- and I'll just,
17 to move this along -- press reports have
18 indicated that if somebody raised money and
19 they wanted attribution to their tracking
20 number that they would write the tracking
21 number on the check that they had solicited.
22 Is that accurate?
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1 A Oh, I'm sure there are occasions
2 where individuals indicated on the response
3 device cards.
4 Q I'm sorry, the --
5 A A card. The federal law requires
6 you to -- I don't know if you have one of
7 those or not. I don't know if there's one
8 in existence.
9 The Federal Election Law requires
10 you to get the following information when
11 someone gives more than $200. Employer
12 information. The wording -- and don't quote
13 me on this -- but I think it's best
14 estimates -- best efforts to get that
15 information.
16 Q What was that card called?
17 A It's a response device.
18 Q Response device?
19 A Uh-huh. If you are coming to a
20 state, you've got to mail in a card and tell
21 them you are coming. It's called a response
22 device.
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1 Q So I guess I don't understand.
2 How do tracking numbers relate to the
3 response device card?
4 A There was a place on the response
5 device where you could put in a tracking
6 number.
7 Q So if an authorized agent -- I
8 guess I'm curious. Why would something sent
9 out from an authorized agent result in a
10 response device card coming back to the
11 campaign?
12 A Well, if you send out a letter --
13 let's say someone sent out a letter, okay?
14 On behalf of the campaign. Then they would
15 include in that response device -- they
16 would potentially include the response
17 device and an envelope for it to be sent
18 back by Bush for President.
19 Q When you say someone sent out a
20 letter, you mean an agent of the campaign
21 sent out a letter?
22 A Uh-huh.
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1 Q To a bunch of people? To who?
2 A To whomever he or she were
3 soliciting contributions from.
4 Q So an authorized agent of the
5 campaign would sent out -- can I call it a
6 solicitation?
7 A Sure.
8 Q So an authorized agent would send
9 out a solicitation to people who they were
10 trying to fund raise from, on behalf of Bush
11 for President; is that accurate?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then included in that letter would
14 be this response device card that you were
15 talking about?
16 A Sure.
17 Q In the letter from the agent to
18 whoever was being solicited, would they
19 indicate, you know, my tracking number is X?
20 How did the person who was the target of the
21 solicitation know a particular tracking
22 number to write on the response device card?
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1 A I don't know how they would know.
2 I mean, the response device card may --
3 somebody may have filled it in before they
4 sent in the little the space that said
5 tracking number, or they could have
6 encouraged people in the body of the letter
7 to put a tracking number on it.
8 Q Was it a common practice for the
9 agents to write tracking numbers on the
10 response device card?
11 A I don't know. I don't know if it
12 was a common practice. I'm sure it
13 occurred.
14 Q Well, by the definition of the
15 word agent -- I'm not trying to trick you,
16 I'm really trying to understand here -- if
17 they were an agent of the campaign, they are
18 doing it on behalf of the campaign?
19 A Right.
20 Q Is that true? You are here today
21 to testify on behalf of the campaign; is
22 that true?
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q So what I'm trying to understand
3 is, was it a regular practice of the
4 campaign through the particular agents to
5 write a particular tracking number on the
6 response device card that would then be sent
7 back in?
8 A I think there are people that were
9 authorized agents that did that, yes. I
10 don't know if it was a regular practice of
11 the campaign. It was probably more a
12 practice of the agent, he or she themselves.
13 Q Do you know, in your capacity as a
14 representative of Bush for President, do you
15 know of other ways that agents conveyed or
16 told the people they were soliciting, this
17 is the tracking number, and I would like you
18 to write it either on your response device
19 card or somewhere else to let the campaign
20 know?
21 A Sure. People put that in letters
22 as well.
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1 Q I see. So if you know, what would
2 be an example of something that someone
3 would write in a letter?
4 A You are asking me for speculation.
5 You could put, please put my personal
6 tracking number, you know, 1234, on your
7 checks, as I'm trying to become a Pioneer.
8 Q Now, when the campaign received
9 checks and/or response device cards, and
10 they had tracking numbers on it, what did
11 they do with that information?
12 A I think it was -- when the checks
13 came in from individuals, they usually came
14 in to -- they would come in to one of the
15 staff, and they would be tracked. There
16 would be a computer indication, an entry
17 into a computer, that they had received a
18 contribution on behalf -- they had received
19 a contribution with that tracking number on
20 it.
21 Q I see, so was there a spreadsheet
22 of some sort maintained?
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1 A We have produced for you -- the
2 lawyers have produced for you our
3 information about how much people's tracking
4 numbers had by them.
5 Q Right, and I appreciate that and
6 I'm happy to have that document. I don't
7 mean to be glib, but what I'm trying to
8 determine is, if during the campaign there
9 was a spreadsheet maintained that had a
10 tracking number, perhaps other information,
11 and also was used to track the contributions
12 that came in for that particular tracking
13 number.
14 A Oh, I think there probably --
15 yeah, I don't know if it's a spreadsheet,
16 but I think people kept lists, sure.
17 Q So I'm trying to understand, how
18 was that information maintained? Who kept
19 those lists?
20 MR. BERGER: I can help with part
21 of that, because there may be come
22 confusion. The spreadsheet that we produced
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1 to you was merged in a document which we
2 created, which was the identity of the
3 Pioneer with the historical spreadsheet
4 maintained by the campaign.
5 That's where the column in the
6 information that says contributions as of
7 March 31st comes from. That was a
8 contemporaneous document prepared by the
9 campaign, and we merged them for you so that
10 you would have that.
11 I think the remaining part of your
12 question is, who was responsible within the
13 campaign for maintaining that spreadsheet?
14 THE WITNESS: Is that right?
15 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: The spreadsheet was
17 kept by -- the regional people kept them for
18 individual people in the regions.
19 BY MS. DANETZ:
20 Q So again, I'm going to refer back
21 to your individual testimony, and tell me
22 and/or correct me if I'm mischaracterizing
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1 it, but I believe you stated that there were
2 four regional people who worked for the
3 campaign; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q I believe you identified them in
6 your personal deposition; is that correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 MR. BERGER: Have their names
9 changed in the last hour?
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 BY MS. DANETZ:
12 Q They were, just for making it
13 clear --
14 MR. BERGER: Beth Sturgeon?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. BERGER: Travis Thomas?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. BONIFAZ: Mary Kay Kelly, now
19 Johnson?
20 THE WITNESS: Kelly, now Johnson.
21 MR. BERGER: Heather Larison?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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1 BY MS. DANETZ:
2 Q So those were the four regional
3 people that would have maintained
4 spreadsheets for agents from their
5 particular region?
6 A Sure.
7 Q This might go back to my
8 confusion, so feel free to jump in if
9 necessary.
10 Was there a form of how the
11 spreadsheet was maintained? In other words,
12 did they all maintain the same information
13 within their respective spreadsheets?
14 A I don't know what particulars they
15 kept within their individual spreadsheets.
16 A lot of people kept their own list, too. A
17 lot of the individual people who wanted to
18 be Pioneers kept a list, too.
19 Q I want to go to Exhibit 2 again.
20 A This one?
21 Q Yes.
22 A Okay.
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1 Q There's a lot of information asked
2 for in this document, and if you notice
3 about halfway down, the form asks for the
4 industry; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Could you tell me why the Bush
7 Exploratory Committee and also the Bush for
8 President, Inc. asked what industry the
9 particular agent was affiliated with?
10 A For purposes of probably knowledge
11 of what industry they were involved in.
12 Q Well, right, but I mean, I'm
13 assuming that the campaign didn't ask for
14 extraneous information, so I'm just
15 wondering what particular interest the
16 campaign had in the industry.
17 So for example, just by way of
18 explanation, I can understand why it's of
19 interest to the campaign that in this
20 case -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- Peter
21 Adams pledged to try to raise $100,000 by
22 September 1st, because the campaign was
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1 engaged in fund raising and presumably
2 wanted the money early.
3 Have I stated anything that seems
4 untrue so far?
5 MR. BERGER: There's a lot in that
6 question, so rather than arguing over the
7 form, are you focused on the September 1st
8 date, the employer/occupation information or
9 the amount? Because you mentioned all three
10 of those in your question.
11 BY MS. DANETZ:
12 Q I'll go through it step by step
13 because I think it will be easier, with the
14 ultimate goal being my trying to understand
15 why a campaign wants to know the industry
16 that an agent is involved in, okay?
17 I understand why you need to know
18 the person's name, because you need to know
19 who is raising money for you. I understand
20 why you need to know the employer and the
21 occupation, because I believe you said that
22 that is required in the best efforts. Is
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1 that true when you were talking about the
2 response device card?
3 A The Federal Election Law requires,
4 you know, if someone is going to donate any
5 amount over $200, you are required to make a
6 best efforts to go and find their employer
7 and occupation, that's correct.
8 Q So I understand why you would ask
9 that because it seems like that's going
10 toward those best efforts.
11 Since the campaign was fund
12 raising, I can understand why you would want
13 to know that they pledged to raise $100,000.
14 Again, correct me if I'm wrong in why you
15 need to know this, but it seems to me that a
16 campaign wants to be able to project how
17 much money they have.
18 Is that kind of why you want to
19 know how much this person is pledging to
20 raise?
21 A You want to know how much money
22 the person is pledging to raise so you can
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1 try to figure out what kind of resource
2 potential is out there.
3 Q I see. Does asking them to pledge
4 a certain amount also encourage them to
5 actually go out and raise that amount as
6 opposed to a lesser amount? I'm asking. It
7 could be that you don't know.
8 MR. BERGER: The premise of your
9 question was I think you said asking them to
10 pledge a certain amount. I don't think he
11 ever said they asked them to pledge a
12 certain amount. It says "I agree to pledge"
13 but I don't think that he ever said the
14 campaign asked them to pledge a certain
15 amount.
16 BY MS. DANETZ:
17 Q I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that.
18 In filling out this form, the
19 person, we will say, is requested by the
20 form to indicate how much money they are
21 pledging to raise, okay? I'm trying to get
22 at what purpose does that serve.
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1 MR. BERGER: I think you answered
2 that, but if there's anything you have to
3 add to your answer. Resource potential?
4 THE WITNESS: Trying to find out
5 what the resource potential is.
6 BY MS. DANETZ:
7 Q Going to this September 1st date,
8 does it help the campaign to know a date by
9 which an agent is going to try to raise a
10 certain amount?
11 A Sure.
12 Q How does it help?
13 A Gives you a sense of the kind of
14 budget, you know, when they think they will
15 accomplish what they are trying to
16 accomplish.
17 Q Then again, the last line that's
18 filled out is signature. Does the campaign
19 seek that information through the form to
20 verify that this person is in fact pledging
21 this amount? What is the purpose of the
22 signature?
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1 A I don't know what the purpose of
2 the signature was. I don't know what the
3 purpose of the signature was.
4 Q Does the signature indicate that
5 in this case Peter Adams is actually almost
6 signing off, if you will, that he will
7 pledge to raise $100,000?
8 MR. BERGER: You mean is it
9 contractual?
10 MS. DANETZ: No, I just --
11 MR. BERGER: Let's make this
12 easier.
13 THE WITNESS: I have no earthly
14 idea.
15 MS. DANETZ: I'll move on because
16 it's really not that important.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
18 BY MS. DANETZ:
19 Q To go back to the line that says
20 my industry is blank, I'm trying to
21 understand, because I haven't worked in a
22 political campaign and you are the
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1 representative of a political campaign and
2 individually have worked on political
3 campaigns.
4 Of what use is it to the campaign
5 to have the person's industry identified?
6 A We were trying to reach out to as
7 many people in as many different facets of
8 life as possible, so I think that's why we
9 asked the question.
10 Q So did the campaign look to this
11 information as an indication of how well it
12 was doing outreach in particular industries?
13 A The campaign took this information
14 and had it set up system so that we knew
15 what Peter Adams was doing, and this
16 individual, as solicitor tracking No. 7612.
17 That was the purpose of the information.
18 Q I'm sorry, I don't want to
19 mischaracterize again, so you put the
20 industry information into some form of
21 computerized filing? Could you just explain
22 what you are talking about?
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1 A Peter Adams -- I didn't keep this
2 list, as I said before, but I think Peter
3 Adams would have been listed with his
4 tracking number of 7612. This would have
5 been filed at the campaign.
6 Q Sorry, the form would have been
7 filed or --
8 A The form would have been filed.
9 That's where these come from.
10 MR. BERGER: The question was how,
11 if at all, did the Bush for President
12 campaign use the industry information shown
13 on forms like Exhibit 2?
14 MS. DANETZ: Yes, that's exactly
15 what I'm trying to find out. Thank you.
16 MR. BERGER: Can you help her?
17 THE WITNESS: The purpose of
18 figuring that out was to try to figure out
19 where we had a lot of people helping us and
20 where we didn't. We wanted to reach out to
21 as many different groups as possible in
22 different varieties, in different walks of
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1 life. So I think that was the purpose of
2 and the usefulness of that.
3 BY MS. DANETZ:
4 Q So was there somebody who or did
5 the campaign keep track of, we have people
6 from this industry, we have people from this
7 industry? Was that something the campaign
8 kept track of?
9 A We kept track of individuals in
10 their functions as individuals. I'm sure
11 there were people -- I'm sure that we
12 noticed whether or not there were people
13 involved in different industries in fund
14 raising effort.
15 Q Was there an attempt to get people
16 from particular industries involved in the
17 campaign?
18 A We wanted to reach out as broad as
19 humanly possible, to touch as many different
20 segments of America as we could.
21 Q So can I take that, then, to
22 mean -- and again, I know you will correct
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1 me if I'm wrong -- that you sought to get
2 people from every industry involved because
3 that would be like the broadest brush?
4 A We tried to get people involved in
5 a variety of -- in every geographic group
6 possible. We were trying to get as many
7 people involved in the campaign as humanly
8 possible.
9 Q I'm still not getting the
10 information I'm trying to get. I don't want
11 to kind of belabor the point, but I'm trying
12 to come up with a way to ask you that will
13 be as succinct as my friend, Mr. Berger
14 here, asked.
15 MR. BERGER: Part of the reason
16 why maybe you are confused is because of the
17 type of information that was redacted,
18 because he has got in mind what the form
19 looks like when it's not redacted, and you
20 haven't seen it, because he is talking about
21 all these different points of connection.
22 There's also personal geographic
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1 information and other types of information
2 that we have redacted to protect personal
3 privacy. You are focussing on what is left
4 here, and he is thinking about industry,
5 geographic and other types of information.
6 BY MS. DANETZ:
7 Q Just to give you a sense of what
8 I'm trying to figure out, I'm still trying
9 to get a sense of -- with respect to
10 industry in particular, let's forget about
11 what is redacted because I have no idea what
12 it is anyway -- to what use did the campaign
13 put this information about industry?
14 A As I've said, we wanted to reach
15 out to as broad a spectrum as possible, so I
16 think that that would have been the use, but
17 the specific purpose of this form was, as we
18 have discussed, to get the name and give
19 them a number.
20 Q Was there, say, a time within the
21 campaign -- obviously focusing on the
22 primaries since that's when you were raising
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1 money -- or during the Exploratory Committee
2 where there was a determination made that,
3 you know, we have people in this industry,
4 we have people in that industry, but it
5 looks like we have a whole -- we don't have
6 anybody from, say -- and I'm really just
7 pulling this out of the air -- the
8 telecommunications industry, or some other
9 industry that maybe you felt like had not
10 been involved in the campaign and you wanted
11 to kind of do further outreach to that
12 particular industry?
13 A I don't really remember a specific
14 meeting where that was discussed, but we
15 were looking for universally people. People
16 who had gone to Harvard Business School with
17 then Governor George W. Bush, people who
18 were in the arts community, people who were
19 in the investment management -- whatever
20 that means -- industry.
21 We were trying to find as many
22 different touch points as we possibly could.
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1 Q But the form doesn't ask about,
2 say, are you involved in the arts or did you
3 go to Harvard Business School with then
4 Governor Bush. So I'm still trying to get
5 to why this form inquired about the industry
6 of the person.
7 A I didn't draft the form so I can't
8 answer the question.
9 Q Right, but you are here in your
10 capacity as a representative of the
11 campaign, so although you have no personal
12 knowledge, you have an obligation to provide
13 this information to the extent it was
14 available in an investigation?
15 MR. BERGER: He understands that.
16 Based on your investigation and your own
17 personal knowledge and the other sources of
18 information that are available to you, do
19 you have an understanding why the campaign
20 sought industry information?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, to make sure
22 that we were involving as many people in as
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1 many different places as humanly possible.
2 MR. BERGER: I think she asked you
3 another question, just to move this along,
4 which was, did the campaign track
5 information given by industry using this
6 industry information.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it
8 was done or not on a formal basis. I don't
9 know.
10 BY MS. DANETZ:
11 Q Do you know whether it was done ad
12 hoc?
13 A It may have been. People may
14 have -- I mean, we clearly reached out to
15 different groups of people.
16 MS. DANETZ: Sorry, could you just
17 go back and remind me what the last question
18 was?
19 (The reporter read the record as
20 requested.)
21 THE WITNESS: I think that there
22 were instances where people came together in
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1 a particular industry, tried to reach out
2 within that industry, so it may have been
3 done on an informal basis.
4 BY MS. DANETZ:
5 Q Do you know of any examples of
6 that?
7 A The Harvard Business School is the
8 one that comes to my mind.
9 Q What did Harvard Business School
10 do?
11 A There were a group of people that
12 had gone to Harvard Business School with the
13 governor, and we wanted to make sure we
14 reached out to that group of people.
15 Q Was there anybody who came
16 together on behalf of the electric utility
17 industry?
18 A I don't know. I don't know if the
19 electric industry as itself had a group.
20 There were people in the electric industry
21 that raised money for the campaign.
22 Q Who would that be?
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1 A In preparing for my testimony I
2 reviewed a memo from Tom Kuhn, who worked
3 for the Electric Industry Association, I
4 think is his official capacity.
5 While you are commenting, I'm
6 going to quick go to the bathroom.
7 MS. DANETZ: Sure.
8 (Recess)
9 BY MS. DANETZ:
10 Q I'm just going to go through a
11 series of questions, and I think that they
12 will require a yes or no, but obviously you
13 have figured out the routine by now. If
14 they don't, you won't answer them that way.
15 In the campaign's efforts to reach
16 out to different communities of interest,
17 did the campaign reach out to the banking
18 industry?
19 A I think there were individuals
20 that helped us in the campaign that were
21 part of the banking industry.
22 Q Now, would you say that the
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1 campaign reached out to people who went to
2 Harvard Business School with then Governor
3 Bush?
4 A No, there were people -- I mean,
5 yes, we reached out in the sense of we
6 encouraged them, but people came to us that
7 went to Harvard Business School and said, we
8 want to get together and do the Harvard
9 Business School thing.
10 Q So is the same thing true with the
11 banking industry?
12 A There were individuals that had
13 helped the Governor in his campaign for
14 Governor that were in the banking world that
15 participated in the campaign.
16 Q Did the campaign reach out to the
17 insurance industry?
18 A I think there were individuals in
19 the campaign that were part of the insurance
20 industry, yes.
21 Q Can you name any of them offhand?
22 A I can't, I'm sorry.
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1 That's not true. Hank Greenberg
2 is in the insurance industry. That would be
3 Hank Morris Greenberg.
4 Q I was going to ask about that.
5 What about individuals in the
6 banking industry? I know you've already
7 answered my question about whether the
8 campaign reached out to the banking
9 industry, but were there people involved in
10 the campaign who were in the banking
11 industry?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Who were they?
14 A I don't know the specific, but I
15 can just -- I'm sure there is somebody that
16 was in the banking industry that was
17 involved in the campaign.
18 MR. BERGER: Is your question
19 whether there were Pioneers who were in the
20 banking industry?
21 BY MS. DANETZ:
22 Q Sure. Let's make it, were there
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1 Pioneers who were --
2 A In the banking industry?
3 Q Yes.
4 A I think so.
5 Q Did the campaign reach out to the
6 oil industry?
7 A There were people that had
8 supported the Governor in the past who were
9 in the oil industry who were involved in the
10 campaign, yes.
11 Q So the campaign then reached out
12 to people in the oil industry; is that true?
13 A There were people in the campaign
14 who were in the oil industry who supported
15 the Governor and had supported the Governor
16 and wanted to help him become president.
17 MS. DANETZ: Can we just take a
18 two-minute break?
19 THE WITNESS: Sure.
20 (Recess)
21 MR. BERGER: Just for your
22 planning purposes, we have a tired witness
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1 on our hands, so we are going to end
2 at 7:30. If you are finished, you are
3 finished. If not, we will have to come up
4 with an alternative. So let's use that as
5 our target.
6 MR. BONIFAZ: Just to be clear on
7 the record, we are going to end this portion
8 of the deposition and decide at 7:30 whether
9 we are closing the deposition or whether we
10 are going to continue.
11 MR. BERGER: Options are open on
12 either side of the table, which includes if
13 you can't get it done by 7:30, let's see
14 where we are, but let's see if we can get it
15 finished by 7:30.
16 BY MS. DANETZ:
17 Q I'm trying to make this as
18 interesting as possible.
19 Going back to Exhibit 2, yes, and
20 the other documents that the campaign
21 produced that we have discussed, at least
22 the forms are similar to the one that is
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1 marked as Exhibit 2, with different
2 information filled into the forms.
3 Who retained the hard copies of
4 these forms?
5 A I think they were retained by the
6 counsel's office. They were either retained
7 by the counsel's office or by somebody on my
8 team. I don't know.
9 Q By that do you mean the legal
10 counsel?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Who was the --
13 MR. GINSBERG: They were in my
14 office.
15 MS. DANETZ: Do you just want to
16 identify yourself for the record?
17 MR. BERGER: That's Ben Ginsberg.
18 He was the outside general counsel for the
19 campaign.
20 MS. DANETZ: Okay.
21 MR. BERGER: The document states
22 that the white copy of the original was
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1 probably in the individual's files, the
2 yellow copy was in state finance chairman
3 files, so that's an answer with respect to
4 what is identified here as the pink copies,
5 and I can tell you this was copied from the
6 pink copies.
7 BY MS. DANETZ:
8 Q The yellow copy went to state
9 finance chairman. How does that relate to
10 the agents who had the tracking numbers?
11 A What do you mean?
12 Q Well, in other words, the agents
13 who had tracking numbers, were they kind of
14 in an organizational structure, reporting to
15 a state finance chair? How was it
16 determined what yellow copy went to who?
17 MR. BERGER: What was the
18 relationship between the state finance chair
19 and the national finance director and the
20 national finance chair?
21 THE WITNESS: The state chairs
22 were part of the team that was helping us in
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1 the individual states.
2 BY MS. DANETZ:
3 Q So there was a state finance chair
4 for each state in the United States?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q Did, say, all of the agents who
7 were assigned tracking numbers who came from
8 Pennsylvania, for example, were they all
9 underneath organizationally the state
10 finance chair or was that kind of a -- was
11 that parallel in the organizational
12 structure?
13 I'm trying to understand the
14 relationship between the state finance
15 chairs and the agents who had tracking
16 numbers.
17 MR. BERGER: It's outside the
18 scope of the notice, but we will do our best
19 to help you on that, but there's no topic on
20 the organizations of the finance operation,
21 but let's see if we can get you an answer in
22 terms of -- is your question did individual
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1 agents who lived in state X have any direct
2 report responsibilities to the state finance
3 chair of the same state?
4 MS. DANETZ: Yes. Just to be
5 clear, I'm asking this question because it
6 seems to me it's listed on the document, so
7 to the extent that it arises from the
8 document, I do believe it's within the
9 scope.
10 MR. BERGER: We will try to get
11 you an answer. I just wanted to make sure I
12 understood the question.
13 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
14 MR. GINSBERG: Did individual
15 agents report to the state finance chair?
16 THE WITNESS: Report in what? I
17 don't understand. We wanted to make sure
18 the state chairmen knew who had signed up in
19 their state to help. That was really the
20 purpose of the whole thing.
21 MS. DANETZ: Thank you. That's
22 good enough.
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1 BY MS. DANETZ:
2 Q In terms of the pink copies -- and
3 I'll direct this question to you with the
4 understanding that then you might jump in
5 because you might have the knowledge -- how
6 were these documents filed?
7 By that I mean, were they filed
8 alphabetically? Were they filed
9 chronologically by tracking number? Were
10 they filed by industry? I mean, I'm just
11 curious.
12 A I don't know how you filed them.
13 MR. GINSBERG: I think they were
14 filed geographically. They were state by
15 state notebooks, I think alphabetically by
16 state.
17 THE WITNESS: That would make
18 sense.
19 BY MS. DANETZ:
20 Q How about the individual state
21 finance chairs? Do you know how they filed
22 their hard copies?
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1 A I don't know.
2 Q Getting back to the tracking
3 system, we may have gone over this. I'm
4 getting tired, too.
5 A That's okay.
6 Q When, say, a check or a response
7 device card came in and it had a tracking
8 number, I believe you said that was input to
9 a computer system somewhere; is that true?
10 A When the check came in from a
11 state it would have gone to the person that
12 was responsible for that state, one of those
13 regional people we talked about.
14 Q Oh, right, thank you. Each of
15 those regional people kept their own
16 spreadsheets, I think you stated?
17 A Yes.
18 Q In your investigation for today
19 and in producing the spreadsheet that you
20 did that listed the contributions for the
21 individual tracking numbers, did you consult
22 these four different spreadsheets that would
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1 have been maintained by the regional people?
2 MR. BERGER: There's a premise to
3 your question which was not correct. There
4 were four different regional spreadsheets.
5 What we did was, from the
6 available records of the campaign, to the
7 extent they are maintained by either
8 Mr. Oliver here individually, by his
9 records, to the extent the campaign's
10 records are in the possession of his legal
11 counsel, they were searched.
12 To the extent that we were able to
13 find any other existing records of the
14 campaign, that is the spreadsheets that we
15 consulted.
16 MS. DANETZ: I'm not trying to
17 suggest that there were spreadsheets out
18 there that were ignored in producing what
19 you did, but I thought I understood
20 Mr. Oliver to say that the individual
21 regional people, the four regional people,
22 would have each maintained a spreadsheet.
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1 I'm not suggesting that they still exist.
2 I'm just --
3 MR. BERGER: I'm not sure what he
4 did say. I think your question was who
5 input the data. He said he didn't
6 individually, but he believes that the
7 people who did were probably either the
8 regional finance people or someone else.
9 BY MS. DANETZ:
10 Q So did each of the regional people
11 maintain a spreadsheet?
12 A They may have. I don't know if
13 they specifically had a spreadsheet that
14 followed a form. I think they maintained
15 records. All of them maintained records.
16 MS. DANETZ: I'm going to be
17 referring to BFP 151.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
19 MR. BERGER: They want to look at
20 the spreadsheet that was produced.
21 MS. DANETZ: No, BFP 151.
22 THE WITNESS: Is that one of
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1 these?
2 MS. DANETZ: It's one of the
3 forms.
4 THE WITNESS: Tell me where.
5 MR. BERGER: I'll find it for you.
6 151.
7 MS. DANETZ: In fact, we are going
8 to give it to you as an exhibit, so could we
9 mark this as BFP Exhibit 3, please.
10 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 3
11 was marked for identification.)
12 BY MS. DANETZ:
13 Q Can you identify BFP 151 for me?
14 A It's a solicitor tracking form
15 No. 1114 for Dan Cook.
16 Q Sorry, that was 1114?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q To me it looks like there is a
19 copy of perhaps what was a Post-It note on
20 the original? Is that accurate?
21 A This?
22 Q Yes.
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1 A I don't know. I haven't seen the
2 document itself, but it looks that it could
3 be.
4 Q If you just want to look at what
5 looks like it's on a Post-It note?
6 A That does look like it's a Post-It
7 note, yeah.
8 Q Can you tell me who Kate is?
9 A Kate Marinas was one of the staff
10 members on the finance operation.
11 Q That would be at the national
12 level or at a regional level or --
13 A She worked for a lot of people.
14 She worked -- she was kind of a helper in
15 this instance. The regional people worked
16 at the national level. I mean, those four
17 people worked for me at the national level.
18 Q So you were all in the same
19 office?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
22 A I should have told you that. I'm
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1 sorry. Yeah, we were all in the same
2 office.
3 Q I see. Can you tell me who this
4 note is from?
5 A It looks like Clare.
6 Q Who is Clare?
7 A Clare, that -- I don't know for
8 sure, but I would assume that that's Clare
9 Pritchett, who worked on the campaign as
10 well, in the finance division.
11 Q What was her title?
12 A I think she was a finance
13 assistant, staff assistant.
14 Q What does that mean she did? What
15 were her responsibilities?
16 MR. BERGER: Wrote Post-It notes.
17 THE WITNESS: Answer the phone. I
18 mean --
19 MR. GINSBERG: She assisted
20 regional finance directors?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean, she
22 worked with the regional finance directors.
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1 She did that. It was, you know --
2 BY MS. DANETZ:
3 Q Sorry, and you said that Kate was
4 one of those regional --
5 A No.
6 Q No? I'm sorry.
7 MR. BERGER: Kate worked for you.
8 THE WITNESS: Kate worked for me
9 and the regional finance directors. She was
10 a staff assistant as well.
11 BY MS. DANETZ:
12 Q So this note says "Kate, for
13 spreadsheet filing, Clare."
14 A Right.
15 Q What does that refer to? What is
16 the instruction?
17 A I don't know the answer to that
18 question. I don't know what Clare was
19 thinking when she did that.
20 MR. BERGER: We spoke to the
21 eponymous Kate here to ask her, when you
22 raised the question with me about whether
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1 there is a spreadsheet, and that is where we
2 found the information that we then used to
3 produce the spreadsheet to you.
4 She indicated that, yes, in fact a
5 spreadsheet was maintained with information
6 that came in as Mr. Oliver has described it
7 using tracking numbers. That's how they in
8 fact compiled the information to know
9 whether somebody got to the Pioneer level.
10 THE WITNESS: The filing would be
11 then sent to the counsel for filing, you
12 know, as we talked about. There's the first
13 one. The third one we kept and gave to the
14 counsel's office.
15 BY MS. DANETZ:
16 Q It may be that Mitch has to answer
17 this question, but the spreadsheets that
18 were used to create the spreadsheet that you
19 gave to us, where is that kept?
20 MR. BERGER: We have it.
21 MS. DANETZ: Well, who gave it to
22 you?
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1 MR. BERGER: Well, let me see. We
2 got that, I think, either from Mr. Oliver or
3 from -- I always thought it was Kate
4 Marinas, but obviously I mispronounced her
5 name, Kate Marinas.
6 BY MS. DANETZ:
7 Q Did you produce that spreadsheet
8 to --
9 A I don't know. I mean, I don't
10 know what was produced from me and what was
11 produced from other sources.
12 MR. BERGER: Let me make this
13 completely unmysterious.
14 Certain records of the campaign
15 are kept in paper form like the famous pink
16 sheets. Other records were copied onto the
17 CD. Duplicates of the CD, to the best of my
18 understanding, were maintained both by
19 Mr. Oliver and Kate Marinas.
20 From those CDs we looked for
21 information that provided both spreadsheets
22 and, for example, those were the documents
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1 that were searched to see whether or not
2 there were any policy communications as you
3 requested.
4 MS. DANETZ: Do we know during the
5 campaign who maintained these, the
6 spreadsheets or the information that went on
7 the CD that came to you?
8 MR. BERGER: Who individually?
9 MS. DANETZ: Yes, within the
10 campaign.
11 MR. BERGER: I know it was a
12 member of the finance operation.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't know the
14 individual. I think it was maintained by
15 multiple people.
16 BY MS. DANETZ:
17 Q Was there any information on those
18 spreadsheets that were on the CDs that was
19 not incorporated into the spreadsheet that
20 you produced?
21 MR. BERGER: Yes.
22 MS. DANETZ: Beyond, say, redacted
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1 information of address?
2 MR. BERGER: Yes.
3 MS. DANETZ: Was information was
4 that?
5 MR. BERGER: Well, if I wanted you
6 to know, I wouldn't have redacted it. It
7 was information that we considered to be
8 outside the scope of what we had negotiated.
9 MS. DANETZ: Well, let me get more
10 specific, then. Did that information
11 include the industry of the person?
12 MR. BERGER: I don't think so,
13 because obviously we know you are interested
14 in that. That's why we went to great
15 efforts to leave in industry information
16 here. I'll doublecheck that. I think it's
17 hard to believe we would have done it given
18 your obvious interest in it.
19 MS. DANETZ: Okay, but you will
20 let me know?
21 MR. BERGER: Absolutely.
22 MS. DANETZ: Whether or not that
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1 spreadsheet included the information about
2 the industry that was of the particular
3 person as indicated on the form?
4 MR. BERGER: Yeah, absolutely. I
5 can tell you, because of the scope we
6 negotiated here, that we have searched for
7 and looked to see whether there were any
8 reports, for example, that were prepared on
9 a spreadsheet by industry that would say, X
10 industry is credited with having contributed
11 Y amount of money to the campaign.
12 We found no such report, which I
13 think is part of what you are asking about
14 in terms of the spreadsheet.
15 MS. DANETZ: Right. Also what I'm
16 trying to understand with the spreadsheet
17 is, I don't know if you are aware how
18 spreadsheets work. I assume you are, but if
19 that is a piece of information, that
20 spreadsheet could be sorted by industry, and
21 that's what I'm trying to determine.
22 MR. BERGER: Right. I think that
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1 you could fairly ask this witness. I mean,
2 if he is aware whether the campaign ever
3 generated a report like that.
4 MS. DANETZ: Mr. Oliver?
5 MR. BONIFAZ: More than whether he
6 is aware. I mean, this isn't about his
7 personal knowledge.
8 MR. BERGER: I understand, but
9 this is also, to cut right to the bottom
10 line here, a deposition of a third party
11 that is not actively in operation. He is
12 doing the best he can with records and
13 people all over the place to come up with
14 information and answer your question. So
15 the best knowledge of the organization is
16 what you are entitled to, and that is the
17 effort that we have put together. That
18 doesn't mean it's perfect information.
19 MR. BONIFAZ: It's more than what
20 he is aware of, that's all.
21 MR. BERGER: It's more than what
22 he was aware of, but the guy is a national
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1 finance director and he is the most likely
2 person to know this.
3 THE WITNESS: What is the question
4 you want to ask me about this?
5 BY MS. DANETZ:
6 Q To the best of your knowledge,
7 based on your investigation, in your
8 capacity as a representative of the
9 campaign, did the campaign ever sort
10 contributors, or I should say Pioneers and
11 potential Pioneers, who had tracking numbers
12 by industry?
13 A I'm thinking. I don't remember
14 that we ever had a specific -- a spreadsheet
15 which said Pioneer X is in Y. I don't
16 remember a specific spreadsheet that had it
17 listed by industry based upon that, but
18 there clearly was -- you knew there were
19 multiple people that were part of a certain
20 industry, and it wouldn't be hard to take
21 their tracking numbers on an informal basis
22 and add them together if you had the
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1 knowledge of who they were.
2 Q Did the campaign ever do that?
3 A I don't remember if the campaign
4 ever did that specifically for every
5 industry, no.
6 Q For any industry?
7 A I think the campaign did do that
8 for the Harvard Business School piece,
9 because there was a letter that specifically
10 went out for the Harvard Business School
11 group.
12 Q How about for the electric utility
13 industry?
14 A I don't remember specifically a
15 group that was put together, a spreadsheet
16 that showed the electric utility industry.
17 Q Can you remember any other
18 particular industry, besides the Harvard
19 Business School group that you've already
20 mentioned? Can you remember any other
21 industry for which the campaign sorted
22 information in the manner we have been
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1 discussing?
2 A Yeah, I think there were some
3 people in the airline industry as well that
4 we did, that that was sorted from, because I
5 think they sent a letter together, but I
6 don't remember the specifics of it. That's
7 my memory of the airline group.
8 Q Any other industries besides the
9 airline industry?
10 A There may be but I don't remember
11 specifics.
12 MS. DANETZ: At this point I'm
13 going to turn the deposition over to
14 Mr. Bonifaz, assuming you don't have an
15 objection.
16 MR. BERGER: I'm going to keep my
17 options open to object because I'm not sure
18 we are most efficiently using the witness's
19 time, but let's see where we are.
20 (Recess)
21 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
22 Q Mr. Oliver, you just stated that
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1 there was some sorting done for the airline
2 industry; is that correct?
3 A No, there was individuals that
4 were involved in the airline industry that I
5 think that asked for what they have done,
6 and we may have sorted it for them by
7 individual, because the tracking numbers
8 were individuals.
9 Q Approximately do you remember when
10 they asked?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q Why would they have asked for that
13 information?
14 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
15 speculation. You may answer.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
17 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
18 Q How did you answer that request?
19 What did you provide them?
20 A I think we pulled their individual
21 tracking numbers and gave it to them, but
22 that would be my guesstimate of what
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1 happened.
2 Q Who asked for this information in
3 particular?
4 A I don't remember specifically who
5 asked for it.
6 Q Any other industries for which the
7 campaign sorted the tracking numbers and the
8 industries together?
9 A I don't remember. There could
10 have been but I don't remember.
11 MR. BONIFAZ: So I just want to
12 get on the record here, this 30(b)(6)
13 deponent is stating that he doesn't
14 remember, there could be. This is not a
15 sufficient answer in a 30(b)(6) deposition.
16 MR. BERGER: I'll tell you what.
17 I've had enough of this. If you want to
18 play games like this, we are going to shut
19 this down now. When he said he doesn't
20 know, he means he, the authorized
21 representative of this campaign, doesn't
22 know. We have made inquiry of those who are
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1 likely to know.
2 When he says he doesn't know, he
3 means we don't know.
4 MR. BONIFAZ: Just to understand
5 what was stated, he didn't say we don't
6 know. He said we don't remember.
7 MR. BERGER: Well, there has been
8 something of a lack of formality in this
9 deposition. We have never even defined what
10 the questions mean when they are said to the
11 witness. When I ask you a question, I mean
12 you on behalf of the campaign, so if you
13 want to be clear about that, we can be clear
14 about all of that.
15 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought we set the
16 foundation when we began with the Notice of
17 Deposition that he was here to testify on
18 behalf of the campaign, not in his personal
19 capacity.
20 MR. BERGER: He has been prepared
21 to testify to the best information that this
22 institution has available. His answers are,
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1 as I understand from the preparation
2 process, what you would learn from any other
3 representative. They are a product of
4 speaking to a number of people affiliated
5 with this campaign.
6 There is no other designee who can
7 provide you more information than this man
8 can do.
9 MR. BONIFAZ: So the campaign's
10 testimony today is that it does not remember
11 whether any other industry sorting took
12 place other than the airline industry
13 example?
14 MR. BERGER: Correct.
15 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
16 Q Just back on this question about
17 reaching out to specific industries, you
18 have testified that the campaign made a
19 specific effort to reach out to Harvard
20 Business School alumni?
21 MR. BERGER: I think that
22 mischaracterizes his testimony.
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1 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
2 Q I'm sorry. Can you recharacterize
3 it correctly?
4 A We wanted to make sure that --
5 there were a group of people who came to us
6 that had gone to school with the Governor at
7 Harvard that wanted to make sure they -- I
8 sent a letter out on behalf to try to get as
9 many people who had been at Harvard with
10 him, to help the campaign.
11 Q Speaking on behalf of the campaign
12 as a 30(b)(6) deponent, did the campaign
13 make any specific efforts such as that for
14 the banking industry?
15 A There may have been. There were
16 individuals in the campaign who were in the
17 banking industry that I'm sure reached out
18 to individuals in the banking community, but
19 that would be national, yes.
20 Q I understand that answer. I'm
21 asking you whether the campaign, just as it
22 had made a specific effort to reach out to
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1 this Harvard Business School group, did it
2 make any specific effort to reach out to the
3 banking industry?
4 MR. BERGER: Mischaracterizes his
5 testimony. If you understand the question,
6 go ahead and answer the question.
7 MR. BONIFAZ: Please restate the
8 question. I'm really not trying to
9 mischaracterize testimony. I thought he
10 just stated --
11 MR. GINSBERG: You said it wrong
12 three times.
13 MR. BONIFAZ: Go ahead and tell me
14 what it is I said wrong.
15 MR. GINSBERG: People came to the
16 campaign, said they want to go out and
17 contact their colleagues. That's what they
18 did. That's not the campaign reaching out.
19 You have mischaracterized it repeatedly now.
20 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought there was
21 a Harvard Business School example in which
22 there was a letter that was sent out.
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1 MR. GINSBERG: I believe he
2 testified that people from Harvard Business
3 School came to the campaign, said they
4 wanted to contact their colleagues from
5 Harvard Business School and did so. You
6 have repeatedly characterized that as a
7 campaign action as opposed to volunteers
8 coming to the campaign. I'm sure we can get
9 this right at least once.
10 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we just go back
11 to the record to when he spoke about the
12 Harvard Business School situation? It would
13 have been about 10 statements ago.
14 (The reporter read the record as
15 requested.)
16 MR. BONIFAZ: That's what you
17 stated.
18 MR. GINSBERG: There were a group
19 of people who came to the campaign.
20 MR. BONIFAZ: I wanted to ask the
21 question to the witness.
22 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
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1 Q You said "I sent a letter."
2 A A letter was sent on behalf -- the
3 individuals that came to us sent a letter
4 out. It wasn't signed by me, it was signed
5 by them.
6 MR. BONIFAZ: Obviously, then, it
7 was misstated.
8 MR. BERGER: I move to strike
9 that. Don't argue with the witness. Ask a
10 question.
11 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
12 Q Did individuals associated with
13 the insurance industry come to the campaign
14 to reach out to the insurance industry?
15 A I don't know. I don't remember
16 whether or not that they had a specific
17 reach-out to the insurance industry. I'm
18 sure that there were individuals who were
19 associated with the campaign who came to the
20 campaign and wanted to raise resources for
21 the campaign and therefore went to the group
22 of people that they knew and reached out to
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1 them.
2 Q Did individuals associated with
3 the oil industry come to the campaign to
4 reach out to members of the oil industry?
5 A I'm sure there were individuals
6 who happened to be involved in the oil
7 industry that raised resources for the
8 campaign and, in doing so, talked to the
9 people that they knew.
10 Q Were these tracking numbers
11 helpful in understanding how those different
12 kinds of efforts were going?
13 A The tracking numbers were for the
14 purpose of being able to tell individuals
15 and tracking what individuals did themselves
16 as individuals.
17 Q Were they also helpful for that
18 effort, to reach out to different
19 industries?
20 MR. BERGER: Objection, ambiguous,
21 but you may answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know if they
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1 were helpful. I mean, you have to ask the
2 individuals who used the tracking numbers.
3 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
4 Q Before we get to that, let's turn
5 to what is Exhibit BFP 300 to 301.
6 MR. BERGER: The witness has told
7 me that he is tired, so we have got a
8 problem here. You want testimony from him
9 to the best of his ability, but he has been
10 going since 8:00 this morning and he is
11 tired, so --
12 MR. BONIFAZ: We will have to
13 continue this.
14 MR. BERGER: Well, I'm not quite
15 sure what you are after here. I think there
16 may be other ways to get this rather than
17 having a back and forth about who is the
18 best person possible to provide you
19 information that doesn't appear to exist.
20 MR. BONIFAZ: We are moving on to
21 a different subject.
22 MR. BERGER: Maybe you should take
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1 five minutes and let him catch his breath
2 and see if we can get you some more
3 information, but I don't want him testifying
4 when he is too tired.
5 (Recess)
6 MR. BONIFAZ: So this is to be
7 marked. This is BFP 300 to 301, for those
8 who have their packets. This is to be
9 marked as BFP Exhibit No. 4.
10 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 4
11 was marked for identification.)
12 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
13 Q Mr. Oliver, do you recognize this
14 document?
15 A I have seen this document in
16 preparation for testimony.
17 Q Can you please describe what it
18 is?
19 A Looks like a facsimile cover sheet
20 from January 4th of 2000. Indicates there
21 are four pages, including the cover sheet.
22 I have two.
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1 MR. BONIFAZ: I believe the two
2 others are coming. BFP 302 and 303 will be
3 marked together. We are going to go ahead
4 and include that as one. That's part of
5 Exhibit 4.
6 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
7 Q So just to go back, does this all
8 taken together refer to the document that is
9 referenced on the facsimile cover sheet?
10 A As discussed?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Yes, I'm going to read it. Is
13 that all right?
14 Q Yes, go ahead. Please do.
15 A Okay.
16 Q I cut you off earlier. Can you
17 please describe what this document is now
18 marked as Exhibit 4?
19 A It is a fax cover sheet from
20 January 4th of 2000, a memo from Tom Kuhn of
21 May 22nd, and a memo from Tom Kuhn of
22 May 26th.
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1 Q Just for the record, is it
2 May 27th you meant to say, not May 22nd?
3 A I said May 27th and May 26th.
4 Q Yes. The cover sheet is a
5 facsimile to you; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Is that from Mr. Kuhn?
8 A It says at the bottom in the
9 right-hand corner, "From the desk of Thomas
10 R. Kuhn."
11 Q Do you remember receiving this
12 facsimile and these three pages?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q The three pages as well? I'm
15 sorry, I mean, four, including the cover
16 sheet?
17 A Yes, I assume that I got all four
18 pages, yes.
19 Q First, why was he sending you
20 this, to your knowledge? Why was he sending
21 you this document?
22 A If my memory is correct, it was
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1 because we had been -- a reporter had called
2 asking about the document, and I had not
3 seen it before, and so I called him and
4 asked him what the document was.
5 Q Presumably you also asked him to
6 send it to you?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q So that refers to what the "as
9 discussed" mention is on the cover sheet?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So on what is marked as, on the
12 Bates stamp at the right-hand corner,
13 BFP 301, in that document there's a
14 statement from Mr. Kuhn on this memo. "As
15 you know, a very important part of the
16 campaign's outreach to the business
17 community is the use of tracking numbers for
18 contributions. Both Don Evans and Jack
19 Oliver have stressed the importance of
20 having our industry incorporate the No. 1178
21 tracking number in your fund raising
22 efforts."
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1 Before moving on to the rest of
2 that paragraph, did you stress the
3 importance of having the electric utilities
4 industry -- did you stress the importance of
5 having any industry incorporate a tracking
6 number into fund raising efforts?
7 A I told -- if my memory is
8 correct, 1178 is Tom's individual tracking
9 number.
10 Q So why would he say both Don Evans
11 and Jack Oliver have expressed the
12 importance of having our industry
13 incorporate the 1178 tracking number in your
14 fund raising efforts?
15 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
16 speculation, but you may answer.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
18 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
19 Q He then goes on to say in this
20 paragraph, "Listing your industry's code
21 does not prevent you, any of your individual
22 solicitors or your state, from receiving
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1 credit for soliciting a contribution. It
2 does ensure that our industry" --
3 underlined -- "is credited and that your
4 progress is listed among the other
5 business/industry sectors." All of that is
6 in bold and in caps.
7 MR. BERGER: There's no question.
8 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
9 Q Again, Mr. Oliver, why would
10 Mr. Kuhn believe that listing of what he
11 called industry's code would ensure that the
12 industry is credited?
13 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
14 speculation. You may answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
16 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
17 Q Did the campaign, speaking on
18 behalf of the campaign, ever give any reason
19 for Mr. Kuhn to make that kind of statement?
20 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
21 speculation. You may answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
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1 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
2 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Kuhn
3 the contents of these memos?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Did you ever discuss the accuracy
6 of the contents of these memos?
7 A I called Mr. Kuhn to have him send
8 me the memos because I had not seen them
9 before they had gone out.
10 Q In your discussion of the contents
11 of the memos, what was the discussion?
12 A I suggested to Tom that he had not
13 followed proper procedure in sending the
14 letter up to be approved by the campaign
15 before it went out.
16 Q What was that proper procedure?
17 A We had a volunteer letter form
18 that had to be filled out, if you wanted to
19 send a letter out.
20 Q What had he done?
21 A If my memory is correct on this, I
22 called him because he hadn't followed proper
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1 procedure in that regard.
2 Q What had he done wrong? I don't
3 know.
4 A He had sent a letter out without
5 it getting approved by the campaign.
6 Q Did the letter itself have
7 language that was not in accordance with
8 proper procedure?
9 A You mean this memo?
10 Q Yes.
11 A This memo I would have corrected,
12 corrected his -- some of the things he said
13 in this memo.
14 Q What would you have corrected?
15 A That we said that I had stressed
16 the importance of having his industry
17 incorporate his personal tracking number
18 into his fund raising efforts.
19 Q Did you ask him to do anything,
20 given that he had sent this out, to make
21 that correction known to the people who
22 received it?
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1 A I don't remember if I asked him to
2 do anything or not. I probably told him if
3 he was going to send anything else out, he
4 needed to send it to the campaign and follow
5 the proper procedure before he did.
6 Q Was there any effort that the
7 campaign made to inform the recipients of
8 this memo that the information in this memo,
9 some of it at least, was not in accordance
10 with the campaign's proper procedure, was
11 incorrect?
12 A I don't remember if we sent a
13 letter to these individuals or not. I don't
14 know.
15 Q I assume, turning to page 302,
16 which is the third page of this document, in
17 the bold and underlined heading, "Now is the
18 time for each of us to identify our industry
19 colleagues in each of these major cities and
20 ask them to serve as a vice chair or
21 co-chair for their city's event," that too
22 is not in accordance with proper procedure?
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1 A I'm sorry, what do you mean by
2 that?
3 Q You've testified that this
4 statement in the second page -- first page,
5 really, of this document, second page of the
6 facsimile -- was incorrect about listing
7 industry code and so forth. I'm asking you
8 whether on the third page that statement in
9 bold and underlined that I've just read into
10 the record was also incorrect.
11 A Incorrect as to what? It looks
12 like Tom was encouraging people to identify
13 people to be involved in the fund raising
14 events.
15 Q Specifically to identify our
16 industry colleagues? Was that okay,
17 according to the campaign?
18 A No, this was not signed off on
19 beforehand. I would have indicated to him
20 that he needed to put -- needed to change
21 the language -- I would have changed the
22 language if I would have saw it before it
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1 had gone out.
2 Q How would you have changed the
3 language?
4 A I probably would have said now is
5 the time for each of us to identify people
6 in each of the major cities and ask them to
7 serve as vice chair or co-chair for their
8 city's event.
9 Q This memo, which is dated May 26,
10 has as the recipient Association Executives
11 for Bush; is that correct?
12 A That's what it says it is to.
13 Q Was there any effort that the Bush
14 campaign made to correct the language to
15 those recipients?
16 A Well, there are individuals in
17 associations that were involved in the
18 campaign, so occasionally we would have
19 conference calls with people that were
20 involved in associations.
21 Q Understood, but with respect to
22 this particular memo and the incorrect
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1 language that was used, was there any effort
2 to correct that with the recipients of this
3 memo?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q Mr. Kuhn was given the authority
6 to use George W. Bush Presidential
7 Exploratory Committee letterhead; is that
8 right?
9 MR. BERGER: Objection,
10 misleading, but you may answer.
11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Kuhn had access
12 to George W. Bush letterhead, yes. But this
13 letter, we didn't see either of these
14 letters before they went out.
15 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
16 Q Can you identify on page two who
17 Robbie Aiken is?
18 A I think Robbie -- Robbie Aiken
19 is -- how I know Robbie Aiken is, he is an
20 advance guy, and he is a lobbyist for
21 Pinnacle Golf Company.
22 Q Bud Albright?
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1 A Bud Albright works with, I
2 think -- I could be wrong, but I think it's
3 Reliant Energy.
4 Q David Brown?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q Haley Fisackerly?
7 A Yes, he was with Intergee, the
8 company Intergee.
9 Q What is that?
10 A I think it's an energy company.
11 Q Kerrill Scrivner?
12 A Don't know.
13 Q Patsy Thompson?
14 A I don't know Patsy Thompson.
15 Q Jeanne Wolak?
16 A Don't know.
17 Q John Maxon?
18 A Don't know.
19 Q Was there any other instances,
20 Mr. Oliver, where you had communications
21 with Pioneers who had sent out documents
22 using Bush Exploratory Committee letterhead
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1 or Bush campaign letterhead that needed
2 correction?
3 A I'm sure in the course of the
4 campaign there were letters that went out
5 that we didn't see beforehand, but it was
6 our practice to -- we set out to try to make
7 our best effort to get them to send the
8 letters in before they went out.
9 Q Did you personally review each of
10 those letters that went out?
11 A I don't think so. I think that
12 they were done by the regional people, and
13 then -- I don't remember what the exact
14 legal sign-off form is. I don't know if we
15 provided a copy or not. I don't know if one
16 exists anymore. But I think that there
17 was -- the lawyers signed off on it and the
18 regional people signed off on it. I may
19 have seen it in some cases and in some cases
20 not.
21 Q But speaking for the campaign, you
22 can't right now remember any other specific
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1 instance like the Kuhn situation where a
2 document was sent out by a Pioneer on
3 letterhead of the Bush campaign with this
4 kind of incorrect language?
5 A I cannot remember, no.
6 Q Turning to page three of this
7 exhibit, which is Bates stamped 302 at the
8 bottom, this memo from Mr. Kuhn starts out,
9 "Many thanks to those of you who were able
10 to join us on the May 3 conference call."
11 Do you know what that conference
12 call was about?
13 A It was probably a campaign update
14 on what was happening on the campaign.
15 Q The next sentence, "I believe it
16 was an excellent opportunity for us to
17 discuss the Governor's campaign with our
18 friends Jack Oliver and Don Evans, and I
19 know they were very appreciative of the work
20 this group is doing on behalf of the
21 Governor Bush Presidential Exploratory
22 Committee."
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1 Is it correct that you were on
2 that phone call?
3 A I assume so.
4 Q Why would you on behalf of the
5 campaign be on that phone call?
6 A I talk to people all the time.
7 Q For this particular call?
8 A We are in the business of
9 encouraging people and giving them updates
10 on what was happening in the campaign.
11 Q To your understanding, this was a
12 particular call with -- the recipients are
13 Association Executives for Bush?
14 A I don't remember the specifics of
15 who was on the call. I think they would
16 probably be heads of different associations.
17 Q What kind of associations?
18 A Associations of people that were
19 like-minded individuals.
20 Q These were people presumably,
21 though, associated with Mr. Kuhn's industry;
22 is that right?
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1 A No, I think these -- I don't know
2 if they were individuals in Tom's industry
3 or whether they were in other industries
4 that also had association people as well
5 involved.
6 Q I'm sorry, the last page, 303, the
7 third paragraph starts out, "We have
8 scheduled our next group conference call for
9 Monday June 7th, at 5:00 p.m. Daylight
10 Savings Time."
11 Do you recall being on that phone
12 call?
13 A I don't know if I was on that
14 phone call or not. We had an upcoming event
15 in Washington, so I may have been on that
16 call to encourage people to participate in
17 the Washington event.
18 Q Is it correct that that upcoming
19 event was the June 22nd event that Mr. Kuhn
20 references honoring Governor George W. Bush?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q Do you have anything more to say
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1 as to what the purpose of that June 7th
2 phone call would be?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q The next document is --
5 A Do you want this back?
6 Q You can just put it here and we
7 will take it later. Thank you.
8 This is entitled Updated List of
9 Pioneers and Potential Pioneers Prepared
10 from Available Records. This entire
11 document that is page numbers two through 11
12 we are going to mark as BFP Exhibit No. 5.
13 We only have a couple of questions on this
14 document.
15 A Do you want me to review the
16 entire document or do you have individual
17 questions from this document?
18 Q I don't believe you need to review
19 it, and perhaps after I ask the first
20 question you will know whether you do.
21 Do you see marked on the
22 right-hand column, there are amounts for
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1 some of these individuals; is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q At the very top of that column it
4 says, Total as of 3/15/00, meaning
5 March 15th, 2000. Is that the date by
6 which -- excuse me one second --
7 MR. BERGER: You didn't put a
8 sticker on this, by the way.
9 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 5
10 was marked for identification.)
11 MR. BERGER: While we are on the
12 record, the document says "Confidential,
13 Counsel Only," so therefore so should this
14 portion of the transcript.*
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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1 MR. BONIFAZ: Yes, thank you. Let
2 me back up.
3 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
4 Q What is this document, Mr. Oliver?
5 A I think this is a list of people
6 who signed up to be agents of the campaign
7 as the counsel has prepared for you all.
8 Q This document was produced from
9 available records; is that right?
10 A That's my understanding, yes.
11 Q Is it also your understanding that
12 it was produced with totals for some
13 individuals as of March 15th, 2000, based on
14 investigations that it preceded?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is there anything you want to add
17 to that?
18 MR. BERGER: I sent an explanatory
19 cover note by email to Lisa Danetz on this
20 subject which explains that the information
21 is the most current information that we have
22 been able to locate. So yes, I can confirm
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1 everything that was in the email that I sent
2 to your organization.
3 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
4 Q With respect to the amounts where
5 they are located, is it then fair to assume
6 that these are minimum amounts but there
7 could be more money raised by these
8 individuals, you know, based on other
9 records that have yet to be reviewed?
10 A I think it's the totals as
11 of 3/15.
12 Q So is it fair to assume that the
13 totals may have increased after 3/15?
14 A They may have, they may not have.
15 It depends on the individual person.
16 Q So is it possible there are other
17 records that are no longer available that
18 would indicate for some of these amounts
19 that they are larger than they are on this
20 spreadsheet?
21 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
22 speculation.
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1 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
2 MR. BERGER: I can tell you that
3 this is the most current information we have
4 been able to find by searching records. I
5 believe that the document from which this
6 spreadsheet information was taken was dated
7 December of 2000, even though the column
8 says March 15, 2000. Obviously some people
9 here raised money that's not credited or
10 they wouldn't be on the Pioneers list on
11 this blank.
12 So inevitably there's missing
13 information, but this is the most current
14 information we have been able to find.
15 MS. DANETZ: Just so we can be
16 clear, we just want to establish on the
17 record that these amounts would have been a
18 minimum that each of these individuals had
19 attributed to their tracking number but that
20 currently -- I mean, there may be documents
21 out there that are no longer available that
22 would indicate that additional money was
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1 attributable to their tracking number.
2 So for instance, I believe Alfred
3 Austin was identified as a Pioneer, yet he
4 is credited only with $43,000.
5 So we are just trying to establish
6 that the numbers given are minimums but it
7 could be more.
8 MR. BERGER: I don't think you can
9 assume anything other than what I've told
10 you, which is it's the most current
11 information we have available. You can
12 assume that if somebody is on the Pioneer
13 list and there's a blank, that the number is
14 understated.
15 MS. DANETZ: Can we also assume,
16 then, that if somebody is listed as a
17 Pioneer and there is an amount less
18 than $100,000 listed, that that person
19 indeed would have raised at least $100,000?
20 MR. BERGER: Well, I think the
21 answer is no, in the sense that you should
22 ask Mr. Oliver this question. You are
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1 assuming that there's such a thing as a hard
2 and fast total as opposed to people double
3 and triple counting the same dollars that
4 were given to the campaign.
5 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
6 Q How did the campaign know when an
7 agent became a Pioneer, Mr. Oliver?
8 A In most cases the individuals, I
9 would assume, call and say, hey, I'm close
10 or I'm there, you know, am I a hundred, am
11 I 100,000? That would have been the best
12 indicator.
13 Q Then was there some effort to
14 record that? The Pioneer would call and
15 say, hey, I'm close, is there some effort to
16 record where they were?
17 A Well, that's what the total would
18 tell you.
19 Q Was there an effort to verify that
20 they had raised that amount?
21 A In some cases I'm sure there was
22 an effort made to verify that amount. I'm
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1 sure that they may have sent a list that was
2 checked against the spreadsheet that one of
3 the individuals had had.
4 MR. BONIFAZ: The next exhibit to
5 be marked as BFP Exhibit No. 6 is Bates
6 stamped 503 to 504.
7 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 6
8 was marked for identification.)
9 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
10 Q Do you recognize that document,
11 the two-page document?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Can you describe what it is,
14 please?
15 A There are two fund raising
16 invitations.
17 Q For the Bush campaign?
18 A Yes. Actually one is for the --
19 yeah, they both are for the Bush campaign.
20 Bush for President, Incorporated. One is
21 the Governor Bush Presidential Exploratory
22 Committee.
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1 Q The Governor Bush Presidential
2 Exploratory Committee had advertised that
3 Governor George Bush would be there, George
4 W. Bush; is that right?
5 A On the initial -- yeah, this
6 invitation, BFP 00503, yes.
7 Q Then BFP 00504 advertised that
8 Barbara Bush would be there; is that right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q At the top of these two documents,
11 do you see a heading, Pioneers?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then a number of names listed
14 under that heading?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Can you explain, comparing this
17 exhibit to the prior exhibit we just looked
18 at, why some of these individuals are not on
19 the list that's been produced for us, which
20 has been marked Exhibit No. 5?
21 A I'm missing page one of this
22 document. There's no A.
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1 MR. GINSBERG: I'm missing page
2 one also.
3 MR. BERGER: I can tell you the
4 intent was, and part of the reason why we
5 produced those two pages was when we found
6 these additional documents that we updated
7 the list. That's why there was an updated
8 list and that's why the name was in bold
9 that we were able to find from other
10 sources.
11 MS. DANETZ: I can't find another
12 page one. I think it might have been the
13 product of a --
14 MR. BONIFAZ: Bad copying? If we
15 find another version of this that we can
16 enter into the record.
17 (Discussion off the record)
18 MR. BONIFAZ: Mitch, unfortunately
19 we did not get this copied properly today.
20 Would it help you if we showed you this page
21 one and then you could explain, you or
22 Mr. Oliver, why it is some of these
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1 individuals listed on this other exhibit are
2 not listed?
3 MR. BERGER: Well, he wouldn't
4 know. That's my responsibility. Obviously
5 we produced this so you would have a list of
6 the Pioneers.
7 I'm happy to check these lists
8 against what we have already produced, and
9 if we have any more information besides the
10 names as they appear here, like amounts that
11 are credited to them and tracking numbers,
12 then we will provide that to you.
13 MR. BONIFAZ: We would appreciate
14 that. In particular, just for the record,
15 Lawrence E. Bathgate is not listed. Robert
16 Chernan is not listed. Leonard S. Coleman,
17 Junior is not listed. Nat Conti.
18 MR. BERGER: All right, we will
19 provide you whatever information we have on
20 this. Obviously we intended to provide you
21 these two documents with the thought that
22 you would have all the additional names of
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1 the Pioneers.
2 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we assume that
3 those people were indeed Pioneers?
4 MR. GINSBERG: You can't assume
5 that.
6 MR. BERGER: I don't know the
7 answer to that. I know what the document
8 says.
9 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm sorry, so we
10 can't assume?
11 MR. BERGER: I don't know. You
12 can ask Mr. Oliver, do you recognize the
13 names of these individuals as being
14 Pioneers, people that achieved Pioneer
15 status.
16 MR. BONIFAZ: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: I think some of
18 these people achieved Pioneer status. I
19 think some of them signed up and didn't make
20 it.
21 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
22 Q I would like to ask you about some
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1 specific individuals.
2 A Shall I refer to this?
3 Q That would be helpful, yes.
4 Just for the record, Mr. Oliver
5 was pointing to Schedule A of the Notice of
6 Substitute Deposition, which is Exhibit 1.
7 With respect to communications
8 between Bush for President, Inc. and the
9 following Pioneers concerning any policy
10 matter, based on your testimony did the
11 campaign have any communications between
12 Thomas Kuhn and Bush for President, Inc., on
13 any policy matter?
14 A I'm sorry, I don't understand what
15 you are asking for.
16 Q I'm trying to get to an
17 understanding of communications that
18 occurred between specific Pioneers and Bush
19 for President, Inc., or Bush-Cheney 2000,
20 which is, as Mitch knows, the other Schedule
21 A here.
22 On policy matters that were of
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1 concern either to the campaign or Mr. Kuhn,
2 do you, of behalf of the campaign, know of
3 any communications that occurred between
4 Mr. Kuhn and Bush for President or
5 Bush-Cheney campaign?
6 A I would have been the person Tom
7 would likely have called, and I don't
8 remember specifically any instance of Tom
9 having a communication about a specific
10 policy matter.
11 Q Why would you have been the person
12 he would have called?
13 A Because I was the one who talked
14 to him the most. I was the one who talked
15 to most of these people the most.
16 Q So I understand, you don't
17 remember any communication, but speaking on
18 behalf of the campaign, do you know of any
19 communication that's occurred between
20 Mr. Kuhn and Bush for President, Inc. or
21 Bush-Cheney Campaign 2000 on any policy
22 matter?
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1 MR. BERGER: Just to make sure,
2 you want to exclude, I assume, these
3 individuals sitting with their ears
4 receiving policy information from the
5 candidate making a speech?
6 MR. BONIFAZ: Correct. Thank you.
7 Clarification.
8 THE WITNESS: So the fact that a
9 president gave the speech on something, they
10 may have heard it, you are not interested in
11 that?
12 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
13 Q No. We are speaking about
14 communications outside of that situation
15 between Mr. Kuhn and Bush for President,
16 Inc. and Bush-Cheney that the campaign knows
17 about.
18 A I don't know of any specific
19 communications between Tom and me and the
20 campaign.
21 Q Is it your testimony is that we
22 don't know, the campaign does not know?
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1 A We -- oh, the campaign?
2 Q I'm asking you about on behalf of
3 the campaign.
4 A Yes, it is my testimony that we
5 don't know.
6 Q Is it possible that someone else
7 in the campaign knows?
8 MR. BERGER: Let me object to that
9 question as calling for speculation. Let me
10 make a statement and I'll make you an offer,
11 given where we are.
12 MR. BONIFAZ: Okay.
13 MR. BERGER: He doesn't know.
14 You've asked him, right?
15 THE WITNESS: Correct.
16 MR. BERGER: We have asked other
17 people we would believe to be in a position
18 to know. They don't know. It's getting
19 late.
20 My suggestion is, I'll give you an
21 interrogatory answer on behalf of the
22 campaign. That way you will know that we
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1 have asked everybody we think is fairly
2 within the scope of the campaign, and asked
3 them this question, excluding hearing
4 speeches, that kind of stuff, that there was
5 anything resembling a back and forth, a
6 conversation, I guess that's what we are
7 talking about, about a policy matter
8 involving these 31 Pioneers, I think it is,
9 and the campaign.
10 That's the best I can offer for
11 you. I think it will save everybody a lot
12 of aggravation.
13 MR. BONIFAZ: Okay, fair enough.
14 We will accept that offer as the way that
15 these sets of questions will get answered
16 with respect to each one of these
17 individuals.
18 MS. DANETZ: In the notice.
19 MR. BERGER: Absolutely. Look, we
20 have found, as you know, no documents that
21 suggest it. That would be one source of
22 information to answer interrogatories or
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1 deposition testimony. We have spoken to
2 Mr. Oliver, we have spoken to others
3 involved in the campaign, but there's no
4 point in doing this by way of pulling teeth.
5 It seems to me an interrogatory answer will
6 get you what you want.
7 MR. BONIFAZ: Can you give me one
8 more second?
9 MR. BERGER: Sure.
10 (Discussion off the record)
11 MS. DANETZ: I don't know if we
12 are taking an official break.
13 MR. BERGER: We are going to stop
14 at 7:30. My suggestion to you is, he is
15 tired. I've expressed to you my willingness
16 to work out this on this kind of basis.
17 Given that it's a 30(b)(6), you can get
18 really the same kind of information in an
19 interrogatory, so can we let him go home?
20 MS. DANETZ: I'm not trying to be
21 difficult. We want to confer to figure out
22 whether we are done or whether we have, say,
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1 five or 10 more minutes of questions.
2 THE WITNESS: Let's go to the
3 bathroom.
4 MS. DANETZ: I mean, I don't
5 anticipate that we would have more than
6 that, but to the extent that we have five
7 or 10 more minutes --
8 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we just confer?
9 MR. BERGER: Yes, you can confer.
10 MR. BONIFAZ: Thank you.
11 (Recess)
12 MR. BONIFAZ: We have one more
13 exhibit. I'm sorry. This will be marked as
14 Exhibit 7. It's at the bottom of the pile,
15 it doesn't have a Bates stamp, and it's
16 entitled Updated Confirmed 5+ Pioneer
17 Meetings.
18 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 7
19 was marked for identification.)
20 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
21 Q Can you describe this document,
22 Mr. Oliver? Or with assistance from --
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1 MR. BERGER: I'm happy to make a
2 representation. We synthesized this
3 document from the available records of the
4 campaign, for example, from guest lists at
5 events, that confirmed the presence of the
6 individuals who are mentioned in Exhibit 7.
7 It is what it says.
8 MR. BONIFAZ: Thank you.
9 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
10 Q On the second to right-hand
11 column, do you see several places where GWB,
12 I assume Candidate Bush, attended some of
13 these events; is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So can you explain why, for
16 example, Candidate Bush attended the event
17 on June 3rd, '99, in Texas?
18 A That was our kickoff event in
19 Dallas. There were approximately 2,000
20 people at that event.
21 That's not true. I apologize. I
22 think there may have been 1,700. It was a
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1 large event.
2 Q It wasn't just a Pioneer event?
3 A No, no, no, no. It was an event
4 that -- all these people were there but it
5 was our kickoff event in Dallas, and these
6 people would have been in the photo
7 opportunity prior to that, but --
8 Q Understood. June 7th, '99?
9 A That's the Dallas event. I'm
10 sorry, the first one is Houston. Westin
11 Galleria is Houston and the second one is
12 Dallas.
13 Q Both of these were the kickoff
14 events?
15 A These were the two Texas kickoffs.
16 Q Not specific Pioneer things?
17 A No.
18 Q Then June 15th, '99?
19 A That was a kickoff event in
20 Connecticut.
21 Q Again, not a specific Pioneer
22 event?
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1 A No.
2 Q Are any of these events on this
3 list specific Pioneer events?
4 A I'm going to take a second and
5 look through each one.
6 Q Yes, go ahead.
7 A I don't think, no. The ones -- my
8 memory of all these events are that these
9 are all large fund raising events that we
10 did in conjunction with the campaign that
11 these Pioneers happened to be in attendance
12 at.
13 For example, I think if you go
14 back and look, some of these people, like
15 East Brunswick, it was a big event we did in
16 New Jersey.
17 Q I'm sorry, what's the date on that
18 one?
19 A That's the 10/27/99.
20 These events in Pennsylvania that
21 are on page -- I'm sorry -- page one of
22 this?
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1 Q Yes.
2 A Were the Pennsylvania four stops
3 we did over that two-day period. Then the
4 Florida one is the next stop we did in
5 Florida.
6 Q This event on October 1, '99, on
7 the second page in New York, what was that
8 event?
9 A If my memory is correct, that was
10 a big event we did in New York. We did
11 multiple New York events.
12 Q That was the only event, according
13 to this document, where you were in
14 attendance?
15 A I was -- I didn't see this
16 document until in preparation, but I was in
17 attendance at most of these events. I don't
18 think I went to all of them but I went to
19 most of them.
20 Q So just to clarify, then, none of
21 these events listed on these two pages were
22 events specifically for the Pioneers?
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1 A No.
2 Q A couple more questions and I'm
3 done.
4 Your testimony earlier in the
5 prior deposition that there was this
6 reception at a convention?
7 A At the convention, yes.
8 Q That was one event you could
9 remember that was specifically for the
10 Pioneers?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Speaking on behalf of the
13 campaign, do you know of any other events
14 that were coordinated, hosted, organized by
15 the campaign specifically for the Pioneers?
16 A There were other events that
17 Pioneers attended, like these kind of --
18 these fund raisers.
19 Q Right, but any other events like
20 the reception at the convention?
21 A I'm sure there's the potential to
22 have been a specific Pioneer event, but I
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1 don't remember the specific -- I'm sure
2 there was the potential to have another one,
3 but the one that I remember the most
4 succinctly -- the one I remember is the one
5 I've discussed.
6 Q Was there a practice from time to
7 time to try to bring the Pioneers and only
8 the Pioneers together with campaign
9 officials and/or the candidates?
10 A We tried to -- I think there were
11 times when we would go to a city, obviously,
12 we would invite the Pioneers to come to
13 whatever events that were going on if there
14 was a fund raising with them. You mean a
15 specific meeting on the Pioneers? We may
16 have had another one in Texas, but I don't
17 remember specifically.
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1 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we just keep
2 this open for the purpose of the
3 interrogatories, that we get to attach it as
4 an exhibit?
5 MR. BERGER: Yes, the
6 interrogatory is going to be a sworn answer,
7 so you don't need to worry about that. It's
8 going to a piece of admissible testimony for
9 you, but other than that, I think your
10 deposition is done, if that's the only basis
11 which you want to keep it open.
12 MR. BONIFAZ: That would be the
13 only basis on which to keep it open.
14 MS. DANETZ: If I could just say
15 what other information you could have
16 represented during the deposition that you
17 would provide.
18 MR. BERGER: We will provide the
19 information that I represented that we will
20 provide. I am not otherwise agreeing that
21 this deposition remains open.
22 I'm sure that we will be able to
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1 work things out as we have worked things out
2 until now, but I think we have had enough of
3 this man's time today, so I'll say thank you
4 for spending your time here today.
5 MR. BONIFAZ: Thank you.
6 (Whereupon, at 7:40 p.m., the
7 deposition of JOHN L. OLIVER,
8 III was adjourned.)
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