ADAMS et al., : No. 02-cv-781-KLH-CKK-RJL

4 : No. 02-cv-874-KLH-CKK-RJL

Plaintiffs, : No. 02-cv-875-KLH-CKK-RJL

5 : No. 02-cv-881-KLH-CKK-RJL

v. : No. 02-cv-877-KLH-CKK-RJL

6 : No. 02-cv-582-KLH-CKK-RJL


7 COMMISSION et al., : No. 02-cv-633-KLH-CKK-RJL

: No. 02-cv-751-KLH-CKK-RJL

8 Defendants. : No. 02-cv-753-KLH-CKK-RJL



Washington, D.C.


Monday, September 30, 2002


12 Deposition of


14 a Rule 30(b)6 witness on behalf of Bush for

15 President, Inc., called for examination by counsel

16 for the Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and

17 agreement of counsel, beginning at approximately

18 4:45 p.m., at the law offices of Covington &

19 Burling, 1201 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW., Washington,

20 D.C., before Lauri M. Ploch of Beta Reporting &

21 Videography Services, notary public in and for the

22 District of Columbia, when were present on behalf


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1 of the respective parties:


3 On behalf of Plaintiffs:



5 National Voting Rights Institute

One Bromfeld Street, Third Floor

6 Boston, Massachusetts 02108

(617) 368-9100


On behalf of Defendant Intervenors:



9 Heller Ehrman White & McAuliffe, L.L.P.

1660 K Street, N.W., Suite 300

10 Washington, D.C. 20006-1228

(202) 912-2000


On behalf of RNC and State Parties of

12 Ohio, Colorado and New Mexico:



14 Patton Boggs, L.L.P.

2550 M Street, N.W.

15 Washington, D.C. 20037-1350

(202) 457-6000


On behalf of The Attorney General of

17 the United States:


Federal Programs Branch

19 Civil Division

United States Department of Justice

20 901 E Street, N.W., Room 942

Washington, D.C. 20004

21 (202) 514-4107

22 * * * * *


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1 C O N T E N T S


3 Counsel for Defendant Intervenors 4

4 Counsel for Plaintiffs 32

5 * Proceedings transcribed form page 127 to

page 149 designated CONFIDENTIAL -

6 ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY and bound separately

per request.




No. 1 - Notice of Substitute Deposition 33


No. 2 - Adams Personal Information Form 39


No. 3 - Cook Personal Information Form 85


No. 4 - January 4, 2000, Facsimile 108


No. 5 - Updated List of Pioneers 126


No. 6 - Invitation 132


No. 7 - Updated Confirmed Meetings 143



* * * * *








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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 Whereupon,


4 was called as a witness and, having been

5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified

6 as follows:




10 Q Mr. Oliver, my name is Monica

11 Medina. I'm a lawyer with Heller Ehrman,

12 and I am one of the lawyers working for the

13 defendant intervenors in the case.

14 Do you know who those are?

15 A No, but that's okay. Who do you

16 represent?

17 Q I represent Senators McCain and

18 Feingold, Snowe, Jeffords, Congressman

19 Shays, the folks who were the main sponsors

20 of the Act.

21 When I say the word BICRA, do you

22 understand what that is?


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1 A No, I don't.

2 Q That's the Bipartison Campaign

3 Finance Reform Act that's the subject of

4 this lawsuit.

5 A Okay.

6 Q Good. I'm glad we cleared that

7 up. My purpose in talking with you today is

8 about your role in the Bush for President

9 campaign and Bush-Cheney 2000 campaigns.

10 Have I got the names of the

11 campaigns correct?

12 A Bush for President, primary.

13 Bush-Cheney, general, yes.

14 Q Bush-Cheney. Okay, thank you. My

15 questions have to do with the interactions

16 between the Bush-Cheney and perhaps

17 sometimes the Bush for President campaign

18 and the RNC. So it may be that you are

19 aware of those interactions -- it may not

20 be -- given your job in the Bush for

21 President and then Bush-Cheney campaign?

22 MR. BERGER: May I just respond to


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1 that before you go further?

2 MS. MEDINA: Yes, of course.

3 MR. BERGER: I'm not aware of a

4 cross notice for this deposition having been

5 served by the defendants intervenors, and

6 the subject as you've described it is

7 outside the scope of his 30(b)(6) notice.

8 MS. MEDINA: Well, I'm sorry if I

9 didn't see the scope of the 30(b)(6) notice.

10 If you could explain to me how it would be

11 outside the scope.

12 MR. BERGER: I haven't heard your

13 question yet, but there's nothing in this

14 notice that deals with the relationship

15 between the RNC and any of the Bush

16 campaigns.

17 MS. MEDINA: Well, as you know,

18 the notices of these depositions have been

19 going out late and they haven't been easy to

20 keep up with, so perhaps I've got the wrong

21 scope.

22 MR. BERGER: Well, unfortunately


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1 mine are all marked up with my notes. I

2 know you don't want to be reading my work

3 product.

4 MR. BONIFAZ: We are getting

5 copies.

6 MR. BERGER: The short answer is

7 that it's unfortunately not my problem nor

8 the witness's problem if you haven't seen

9 the deposition notice or if your subjects

10 are outside the scope. I've produced this

11 witness as to the limited negotiated scopes

12 of testimony and what you've described is

13 outside the scope.

14 MS. MEDINA: Well, why don't we

15 see if some of the questions will be within

16 the scope.

17 MR. BERGER: Sure, I will be happy

18 to take it on a question-by-question basis.

19 MS. DANETZ: I just found an

20 unmarked deposition notice. This is the

21 Schedule A. It's two pages.

22 MS. MEDINA: That will help me.


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1 So it only had to do with finances?

2 MS. DANETZ: Yes.

3 MS. MEDINA: Well, that will

4 shorten my questions.


6 Q Can you tell me whether the

7 Pioneers were given background information

8 about then Governor Bush?

9 A I'm sorry, what do you mean by

10 background?

11 Q Let me start again. Strike it.

12 Did the Bush-Cheney campaign meet

13 with the Pioneers from time to time?

14 A What do you mean by Bush-Cheney

15 campaign? In the general election?

16 Q Yes. In the general election, did

17 officials from the Bush-Cheney campaign meet

18 with the Pioneers as a group?

19 A I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember.

20 I don't remember a specific

21 instance but there may have been one.

22 Q Were the Pioneers given any


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1 information that they could use to raise

2 funds from other individuals about the Bush

3 champaign, the Bush-Cheney campaign?

4 A The Pioneers was about the Bush

5 for President campaign.

6 Q Only Bush for President?

7 A Yeah. It was in the general

8 election. The Bush-Cheney campaign could

9 not take contributions. As the law

10 dictates, in a general election mode, when

11 you take the federal government's money, you

12 don't raise resources for the general

13 election personally, as an election body,

14 entity.

15 Q Well, then let's go back.

16 Did the Bush campaign give the

17 Pioneers information that they could use to

18 raise funds from other individuals for the

19 Bush campaign?

20 A What kind of information? Bio

21 information?

22 Q Well, I guess I'm asking you that


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1 question. Biographical information or

2 information that might help solicit the

3 donations, that might help interest other

4 individuals in giving the donations.

5 A I'm sure we had a bio on then

6 Governor Bush that we made available if

7 people had questions about it and then

8 wanted copies of it.

9 Q Were there any other pieces of

10 information or brochures?

11 MR. BERGER: Outside the scope of

12 the notice, but if you can answer, go ahead.

13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm

14 trying to understand what you mean by

15 brochure.


17 Q Let me go back. The Pioneers were

18 asked to donate money themselves, yes?

19 A Sure.

20 Q In addition to donating money of

21 their own, they solicited donations from

22 other individuals, yes?


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1 MR. BERGER: Object to the form.

2 It's leading. It's a third-party witness.

3 MS. MEDINA: You are right.


5 Q Were the Pioneers ever asked or

6 did they ever solicit contributions from

7 other individuals?

8 A Yes.

9 Q When they went about soliciting

10 contributions from other individuals, what

11 did the Bush champaign give them, the

12 Pioneers, to assist them in soliciting

13 information, or contributions, from other

14 individuals?

15 A In terms of paper?

16 Q Sure. Paper or briefings in

17 person, or telephone calls that might

18 have --

19 A I'm sorry. We had a web site that

20 had information on it for people to go to if

21 they had questions. Then Governor had a lot

22 of public appearances that was on national


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1 television or state TV or newspaper

2 articles. They were all publicly available

3 for view.

4 Q What was on the web site, do you

5 remember?

6 A I think there were -- to the best

7 of my knowledge it was -- I think there were

8 bios on the Governor and Mrs. Bush, and then

9 all the press releases that we had sent out

10 I think were on the web site. I also think

11 that speeches that the Governor gave were

12 also on the web site, but I can't be sure of

13 that without reviewing it.

14 Q When the Bush campaign solicited

15 donations from the Pioneers, did you use any

16 printed brochures or other types of

17 information?

18 A Well, what we had, if we were

19 soliciting people to come to an event, there

20 would have been an invitation for an event

21 or a direct mail fund raising letter that

22 would have been sent out.


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1 Q Who did the direct mail fund

2 raising letters for the Bush campaign?

3 MR. BERGER: Objection, outside

4 the scope of the notice, but go ahead and

5 answer it, if you can.

6 MS. MEDINA: The witness raised

7 it.

8 THE WITNESS: When you say "do,"

9 what do you mean?


11 Q Which consultant or which vendor

12 helped to produce the direct mail fund

13 raising letters?

14 A Olson and Delisi was the company.

15 Q Did the Century Strategies assist

16 at all in the direct mail?

17 A I don't remember if they ever did

18 a direct mail fund raising piece for us.

19 They may have but I don't remember.

20 Q Was Ralph Reed involved in any of

21 the fund raising or direct mail pieces for

22 the Pioneers?


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1 MR. BERGER: At this point I'm

2 going to object. This is outside the scope

3 of the notice. Your colleague representing

4 the defendants intervenors had the

5 opportunity to examine Mr. Oliver

6 individually at length this morning. I

7 assume there's some level of coordination

8 between you. If you had questions that you

9 wanted to ask of him in his individual

10 capacity, you should have had your

11 colleagues ask those questions. So I would

12 suggest we move on to another subject.

13 MS. MEDINA: Well, I guess I

14 thought I was here to have the opportunity

15 to depose a 30(b)(6) witness from the Bush

16 champaign, Bush-Cheney campaign. I wasn't

17 aware that in his individual capacity

18 Mr. Oliver wouldn't be able to answer those

19 questions, because I understood him to be

20 here representing himself in his current

21 capacity as deputy director or deputy

22 chair -- I'm sorry if I've got the title


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1 wrong -- of the RNC.

2 MR. BERGER: There's obviously

3 some miscommunication, but it's not on our

4 part. He is not here for all the purposes

5 as a 30(b)(6) representative of either the

6 primary campaign, Bush for President, Inc.,

7 or the general campaign, Bush-Cheney 2000.

8 He is here for very limited

9 purposes. Your questions are outside that

10 scope. However, we could have avoided that

11 problem had defendants intervenor asked him

12 that question in his individual capacity.

13 That deposition is closed, because your

14 colleagues, representing the same clients,

15 asked their questions and rested, so we are

16 done with that.

17 The man has been here since 8:00

18 this morning, so let's move on to subjects

19 that are within the scope of the notice.

20 MS. MEDINA: I believe we are

21 asking about how the Pioneers solicited

22 funds from their donors. We started down


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1 the road of direct mail, which was one way

2 in which they solicited funds from their

3 donors, and now I'm asking about vendors,

4 direct mail vendors, who might have been

5 involved in preparing the letters, the

6 direct mail fund raising letters, that were

7 used to solicit the Pioneers and other

8 donors.

9 MR. BERGER: I don't see how it's

10 within the scope of the notice. If you can

11 tell me, I'm happy to reconsider.

12 MS. MEDINA: Well, can I look at

13 the notice again? Thank you. It's about

14 communications between Bush-Cheney and the

15 Pioneers or between the Bush campaign and

16 the Pioneers. This witness just testified

17 that Bush-Cheney didn't communicate with the

18 Pioneers because they couldn't.

19 MR. BERGER: Right. I agree with

20 that part. He certainly said that. Your

21 question was about Ralph Reed. I don't hear

22 anything about communications between either


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1 of the campaigns and the Pioneers when you

2 ask a question about Ralph Reed.

3 MS. MEDINA: If Mr. Reed was the

4 author of any of the communications between

5 the campaign and the Pioneers.

6 MR. BERGER: I see, your question

7 lacks foundation. You haven't established

8 that Mr. Reed had anything to do with the

9 campaign.

10 MS. MEDINA: That's what I'm

11 trying to do, establish whether he might

12 have, whether or not he did, and if he did,

13 I'll ask the next question. I can't ask

14 that question until I have the foundation,

15 and that's why I'm asking the question.

16 MR. BERGER: Ask the question.

17 MS. MEDINA: Can we go back to see

18 what the question is? I think the witness

19 and I both can't remember it.

20 (The reporter read the record as

21 requested.)

22 THE WITNESS: I don't think Ralph


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1 Reed himself was involved -- his company was

2 involved. Ralph Reed was involved because

3 he was a Pioneer, but I don't think he

4 produced letters that were used on a broad

5 base for the Pioneer solicitations.


7 Q To your knowledge, was the

8 Christian Coalition involved in assisting

9 the Bush champaign in soliciting funds from

10 the Pioneers?

11 A Not to my knowledge.

12 Q Was former First Lady Barbara Bush

13 involved in any solicitations of the

14 Pioneers?

15 MR. BERGER: As an agent of the

16 campaign?

17 MS. MEDINA: As an agent of the

18 campaign.

19 THE WITNESS: I think she may have

20 signed a direct mail piece that went out to

21 the entire list but it wasn't Pioneer

22 specific.


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2 Q It wasn't Pioneer specific. Was

3 the current First Lady, Laura Bush, ever

4 involved in fund raising to the Pioneers or

5 for the Pioneers?

6 A The First Lady of Texas at the

7 time also signed a piece of direct mail

8 solicitation that went to the entire file

9 but it was not Pioneer specific.

10 Q So the Pioneers received direct

11 mail solicitations --

12 MR. BERGER: Let her finish the

13 question.


15 Q No, go ahead. Did the Pioneers

16 receive direct mail solicitations?

17 A I don't know. If they had given

18 the maximum by law, they probably were taken

19 off the list that we were soliciting.

20 Q Once they became Pioneers, did the

21 Pioneers receive regular e-mails or direct

22 mail letters updating them on the campaign,


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1 on how the campaign was proceeding?

2 A We sent communications to people

3 kind of updating them, broad-based, to a lot

4 of people, yes.

5 Q How many Pioneers were there?

6 A I don't know the exact number. I

7 think it's roughly 220? I don't know the

8 exact number.

9 Q How much did you have to

10 contribute to become a Pioneer?

11 A We didn't have to contribute

12 anything.

13 Q Okay, what was the criteria for

14 becoming a Pioneer?

15 A You were raising resources.

16 Q I see. So how much did you have

17 to raise to become a Pioneer?

18 A $100,000. $100,000.

19 Q There were 220 individuals who

20 raised $100,000 or more?

21 A In individual $1,000 or less

22 contributions, yes.


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1 Q Did these Pioneers who raised this

2 money receive any other special benefits for

3 being a Pioneer?

4 MR. BERGER: Object to the form.

5 You may answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Can you say that

7 again, please?


9 Q Did the Pioneers receive any other

10 special benefits because they were Pioneers?

11 MR. BERGER: Mischaracterizes his

12 testimony to the extent you are

13 suggesting --

14 MS. MEDINA: Any benefits.

15 MR. BERGER: Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: They had

17 opportunities to have their picture taken at

18 events when we were in various cities that

19 they were involved in. As I testified,

20 there were instances where we had a special

21 event, at the convention.



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1 Q Did they have opportunities to

2 meet with you?

3 A Sure.

4 Q How often did you meet with the

5 Pioneers?

6 A As a group or as individuals?

7 Q Well, let's start with as a group.

8 A I don't remember how many times we

9 met together as a group. I don't think it

10 was many. Probably less than three or four.

11 Q What happened at those meetings

12 when you had the group together?

13 A Update on what was happening in

14 the campaign.

15 Q How specific were the updates?

16 A In what sense?

17 Q About what was happening in the

18 campaign. Did you give them polling

19 information?

20 A We did. There were presentations

21 on polls, yes.

22 Q Did you give them information


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1 about target or battleground states?

2 A Sure.

3 Q Did you give them information

4 about the upcoming messages or events that

5 the Governor, then Governor, would be

6 attending?

7 A You mean like did we give them

8 where the scheduled fund raisers were?

9 Q Yes, or speeches, or rallies.

10 A Sure.

11 Q Did you give them information that

12 you didn't make available to the general

13 public?

14 A I'm sure there's instances where

15 we shared polling information that was not

16 publicly available.

17 Q At that time?

18 A At that time.

19 Q Did you give them information

20 about where you were concerned about then

21 Governor Bush's ability to do well in the

22 primaries?


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1 MR. BERGER: Objection, lacks

2 foundation, but you may answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't

4 understand what you mean by that, "do well."


6 Q Did you give them information

7 about primaries where you thought Governor

8 Bush might not win?

9 A That information was publicly

10 available. There were national polls and

11 news coverage that kind of laid that out for

12 people.

13 Q I understand that they may have

14 learned it from other places, but did you

15 talk about it with them?

16 A Did we talk to them about how we

17 were ahead in the campaign?

18 Q Yes.

19 A Yes.

20 Q Places where Governor Bush might

21 be trailing at the time?

22 A I cannot say that we did not have


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1 that conversation at some point in time, or

2 we indicated where we were behind and when

3 we were ahead.

4 Q Let me turn your attention -- may

5 I see the list again? One second.

6 Can you tell me whether or not you

7 personally had any discussions with one of

8 the Pioneers named Charles Wyly?

9 A Charles? Discussions about what?

10 Q Did you talk with him?

11 A There were instances that I've

12 talked to Charlie, Charlie Wyly, yes.

13 Q Did you talk with him during the

14 campaign? You may have talked with him

15 since then, but I'm really talking about

16 during the campaign.

17 A I'm sure there were events that he

18 was at that I was at that I may have said

19 hello to him. I don't remember a

20 substantive conversation with Charles Wyly.

21 Q Did he have regular contact with a

22 campaign that you know of?


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1 MR. BERGER: Objection, ambiguous,

2 but you may answer.


4 Q Did he talk to the campaign on a

5 monthly basis?

6 A He may have. I would be the

7 person he would talk to, and I don't

8 remember having a monthly conversation with

9 him.

10 Q Would you be the only person that

11 he might talk to?

12 A I don't know whom else -- I mean,

13 I'm sure he had the ability to talk to other

14 people, but I would be the likely person

15 that he would have called.

16 Q Could he have talked to other

17 people on your staff?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Why would you be the likely person

20 that he would have had contact with?

21 A Because I was the national finance

22 director and he was helping us to raise


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1 resources.

2 Q Do you recall any specific time

3 periods where you talked to him?

4 A I remember talking to him at the

5 kickoff.

6 Q When was that?

7 A The 7th -- I'm trying to remember.

8 The 7th of -- I think was at the 7th of

9 March event. He may not have been. I

10 remember talking to him early because we

11 were geared up, ready to roll.

12 Q What kind of things did he want to

13 talk about?

14 MR. BERGER: Objection. That's

15 outside the scope. There are two subjects

16 here under communications. One is

17 contributions and the other is policy.


19 Q Did he want to talk about policy?

20 A Not with me. Not with me.

21 Q He didn't talk about policy with

22 you?


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1 A No.

2 Q Might he have talked about policy

3 with anyone else within the campaign?

4 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for

5 speculation.

6 THE WITNESS: I don't know the

7 answer.


9 Q Are you familiar with the group

10 Republicans for Clean Air?

11 MR. BERGER: Objection. It's

12 outside the scope of the notice, but you may

13 answer.

14 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I don't

15 have a specific memory about that group.


17 Q How did you meet Mr. Wyly?

18 A I think I met him at an event in

19 Dallas.

20 Q What do you know about his

21 background?

22 A He was in support of Governor Bush


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1 in his campaigns for Governor.

2 Q Did you know anything else about

3 his background? Do you now know?

4 A Yeah, I do. I by now know --

5 Q You can't remember what you knew

6 then?

7 A I don't know what I knew then. I

8 knew he was a former supporter of the

9 Governor, but I didn't know exactly what

10 business specifically he was in.

11 Q Can you tell me what you know

12 about his background?

13 A That he was a supporter of the

14 Governor's, when the Governor ran for

15 governor.

16 Q Do you know what business he was

17 in?

18 A I think he was in the energy

19 business, but I'm not positive about that.

20 Q So you definitely remember having

21 contact with him in March of 1996?

22 A March or April, yeah, in that time


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1 period.

2 Q What was that contact, do you

3 remember?

4 A Just I think I called him and

5 introduced myself.

6 MR. BERGER: You said '96.

7 MS. MEDINA: I mean 2000. I'm

8 sorry.

9 THE WITNESS: Ninety-nine, it was

10 in '99.


12 Q Oh, I see, March of '99.

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q Then how often might you have

15 talked to him after that?

16 A Infrequently, maybe a couple more

17 times throughout the campaign, if I saw him

18 at an event.

19 Q He was one of the earlier

20 Pioneers?

21 A I don't remember whether he became

22 a Pioneer. He was a long-time supporter of


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1 the Governor's.

2 Q I think you said before you

3 remembered talking with him early on?

4 A I did remember talking with him

5 early on, but I don't know when he achieved

6 Pioneer status, which is what you just asked

7 me.

8 Q I see.

9 MR. BERGER: You are getting good

10 at this.

11 MS. MEDINA: Who is, he or me?

12 MR. BERGER: He has got the

13 objections down. He has been doing this all

14 day. I'm going to leave now.

15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to fall

16 asleep now.

17 MS. MEDINA: I think I'm done,

18 actually. Because of the scope, I don't

19 think I can ask any of my other questions,

20 so I will conclude with that.

21 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we take a

22 one-minute break and I can explain what is


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1 happening here?

2 (Recess)



5 Q Sir, just to start things off, can

6 you please state your full name for the

7 record?

8 A John Leachman Oliver, III.

9 MR. BONIFAZ: For the purpose of

10 this transcript, Mr. Oliver, my name is John

11 Bonifaz. I'm the director of the National

12 Voting Rights Institute based in Boston.

13 Lisa Danetz is an attorney at the Institute,

14 and together we are going to be asking you

15 questions at this deposition.

16 We are co-counsel for the Adams

17 plaintiffs, which is the case Adams, et al.,

18 v FEC, et al., which is the case challenging

19 the increase in the hard money limits, one

20 of the 11 consolidated cases challenging

21 certain provisions of the Bipartison

22 Campaign Reform Act.


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1 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 1

2 was marked for identification.)


4 Q You have in front of you what has

5 been marked BFP Exhibit No. 1. This is an

6 exhibit to highlight the terms of this

7 deposition. This is a Notice of Substitute

8 Deposition under Rules 30(b)(6) and 45 of

9 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

10 I would like to turn your

11 attention to page three, Schedule A, which

12 identifies the subject matters of this

13 deposition.

14 First, are you aware of what

15 a 30(b)(6) deposition is?

16 A Yes.

17 Q What is your understanding of what

18 it is?

19 A I don't know the legal

20 terminology, but that I am testifying on

21 behalf of the campaign.

22 Q You are here to testify on both


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1 the behalf of the Bush for President, Inc.

2 campaign and Bush-Cheney 2000; is that

3 correct?

4 A That's my understanding, that is

5 correct.

6 Is that right?

7 MR. BERGER: That's correct.


9 Q You are here to testify on these

10 subject matters under Schedule A with the

11 understanding that Point No. 8 is in

12 contention. Is that also your

13 understanding?

14 MR. BERGER: I don't know if the

15 witness has been briefed on all of the back

16 and forth of the lawyers' bickering, for

17 lack of a better word.

18 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought it was

19 quite friendly.

20 MR. BERGER: It was, and

21 consistent with my friendly communication

22 with you, you took my suggestion and asked


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1 him in his individual capacity a number of

2 questions, all of which would fit within

3 that category, so I see we are proceeding as

4 predicted.


6 Q What I'm trying to establish is

7 whether you, Mr. Oliver, are aware that you

8 are here to testify on these subject matters

9 listed on Schedule A of this deposition

10 notice.

11 A You mean me as an individual or me

12 as a 30(b)(6)?

13 Q 30(b)(6) deponent.

14 A Yes, I'm aware of this.

15 Q What have you done to prepare

16 yourself to testify on these subject matters

17 today?

18 A I have talked with my counsel

19 about it in preparation for it.

20 Q Have you done any separate

21 investigation, research, to refresh your

22 recollection and be able to be prepared to


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1 answer questions on these subject areas?

2 A I've reviewed the documents that

3 my lawyers provided to you.

4 Q Have you done anything else?

5 MR. BERGER: Well, without getting

6 into the content of his communications with

7 lawyers, I'm happy to make the

8 representation on the record that we are

9 perfectly well aware of what 30(b)(6)

10 requires. This is a campaign that has not

11 been in active existence for nearly two

12 years, but yes, we have reached out to

13 people to the extent they can be found who

14 worked with him and for him, and we have

15 posed questions where they were not within

16 his individual knowledge.

17 MR. BONIFAZ: So just to be clear

18 here, when you say "we," that includes

19 Mr. Oliver?

20 MR. BERGER: Well, either

21 Mr. Oliver or people working with him. For

22 example, in preparing him, if he had


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1 questions that we could assist him in

2 answering, then we would make inquiries. He

3 is not obliged to make those inquiries

4 individually but to work with others.

5 MR. BONIFAZ: Some effort has been

6 made by you in conjunction with Mr. Oliver

7 to be able to answer questions on these

8 subject areas?

9 MR. BERGER: Yes. I mean, to the

10 extent there's information available on this

11 subject, he starts with a very strong base

12 of knowledge. He is currently the finance

13 director, and to the extent that others

14 worked for him or with him, we have made

15 inquiries to them and provided him the

16 answer.

17 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm going to turn

18 over Ms. Danetz to begin questioning on

19 these areas.

20 MR. BERGER: You mean I shouldn't

21 make my objection now that one counsel is

22 allowed to question the witness so we can


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1 move to strike everything that has been

2 asked?

3 MS. DANETZ: Are you going to make

4 that objection?

5 MR. BERGER: I don't think so, no.

6 MS. DANETZ: If you are going to

7 make that objection, then I will let John

8 continue.

9 For ease of reference I'm going to

10 just hand everybody a stack of the documents

11 that have been produced. That way I don't

12 have to fish through as I mark an exhibit.

13 I will also let you know the Bates number.

14 Also, for purposes of the record,

15 many of the documents that were produced

16 were labeled confidential, counsel only, and

17 should be so designated in the transcript.

18 I will, of course, let you know as I mark

19 each one.

20 MR. BERGER: We are going to hand

21 you one. You can look at them now.

22 THE WITNESS: I didn't know what


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1 we were doing.

2 MR. BERGER: Might as well take a

3 look at them now so you know what is coming.

4 MS. DANETZ: I am going to start

5 by reference to the documents numbered --

6 and you may want to write this down so you

7 can just refer to it -- BFP 4, BFP 7

8 through 299, and BFP 491.

9 I'm going to start by having BFP 4

10 marked as BFP Exhibit No. 2.

11 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 2

12 was marked for identification.)


14 Q Mr. Oliver, if you would, you may

15 want to look through the documents that I

16 identified for reference, because I don't

17 want to ask you something and have you think

18 that I'm misrepresenting, because I'm going

19 to be asking you about those documents.

20 A Let's pull aside the documents

21 that she is going to ask me about.

22 MR. BERGER: Four?


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2 MR. BERGER: Seven through 299, if

3 I remember her correctly.

4 MS. DANETZ: Yes.

5 MR. BERGER: Which is more of

6 same.


8 MS. DANETZ: I can represent

9 that 491 is a similar looking form with

10 different information.

11 MR. BERGER: Is there anything

12 more after 491?

13 MS. DANETZ: No, not for this set

14 of questions.


16 Q Can you tell me what the form that

17 I have now marked as BFP Exhibit 2 is?

18 A This is a solicitor tracking form.

19 Q What does that mean?

20 A It's a solicitor tracking form

21 that was given to an individual when they

22 signed up to be an authorized agent of the


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1 campaign.

2 Q It was given by Bush for

3 President?

4 A This individual form, yes. I

5 mean, yes, it was given by Bush or President

6 or Governor George W. Bush Presidential

7 Exploratory Committee.

8 Q It says George W. Bush

9 Presidential Exploratory Committee at the

10 top. Is that accurate?

11 A Yes, yes, it does.

12 Q Now, once the Exploratory

13 Committee, for lack of a better phrase,

14 segued into Bush for President, did Bush for

15 President continue to use this same form?

16 A I think that this -- the form --

17 there was a form that was used that was this

18 form. I'm not sure if it was this one or a

19 different variation of the form, but there

20 was a form that was used for solicitor

21 tracking numbers that would have contained

22 this information.


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1 Q It would have been substantially

2 similar information?

3 A Yes.

4 Q I don't want to mischaracterize

5 your testimony, but I'm just trying to

6 remember the answer you gave earlier where

7 you said this was a form that people filled

8 out when they signed up with the Pioneer

9 program; is that correct?

10 No, it's not correct?

11 A This is a form that was used when

12 people signed up to be agents of the

13 campaign and raise money on behalf of the

14 campaign.

15 Q So anybody who wanted to raise

16 money on behalf of the campaign would fill

17 out a form like this; is that true?

18 A Yes. Not anybody. Yes, people

19 that had called and said we want to raise

20 money for the campaign, we used this form to

21 sign them up to be agents of the campaign,

22 that's correct.


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1 Q So I just want to make sure I'm

2 understanding. So did all agents of the

3 campaign then fill out one of these forms?

4 A To the best of my knowledge,

5 everybody that we signed up to be an agent

6 filled out one of these forms, but I don't

7 know the answer to whether every single

8 person who raised money for the campaign

9 filed one.

10 Q But that was the practice?

11 A Yes, that was the practice.

12 Q Could you read for me what this

13 form says in the top right-hand corner?

14 MR. BERGER: In the spirit of

15 moving this along, there's really no point

16 in having the witness read you things we can

17 all agree on. You are asking him about the

18 solicitor tracking number?

19 MS. DANETZ: Yes.

20 MR. BERGER: What would you like

21 to know about the solicitor tracking number.



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1 Q In your personal deposition -- and

2 again, I'm not meaning to mischaracterize

3 your testimony at all, so feel free to

4 correct me if I do so mischaracterize it --

5 but in your personal deposition you

6 testified about tracking numbers that were

7 assigned to people in the Pioneer program;

8 is that true?

9 A I testified that there were

10 tracking numbers assigned to people who

11 wanted to become authorized agents of the

12 campaign and help the campaign. Some of

13 those people went on to be Pioneers, yes.

14 Q Is this an example of one of those

15 tracking numbers?

16 A This is an example of a tracking

17 number that was assigned to an individual,

18 yes.

19 Q In the documents that I have

20 identified for reference, which again are

21 BFP 4, BFP 7 through 299, and BFP 491, are

22 the numbers in the upper right-hand corner


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1 of those documents also the tracking numbers

2 that you have been referring to?

3 A They should be, but unless I look

4 at each one of them, I don't know the

5 answer. I think so.

6 MR. BERGER: In the spirit

7 of 30(b)(6) -- and the witness can correct

8 me if I've got this wrong -- what we

9 produced to you were the tracking forms

10 containing solicitor identification numbers

11 that were assigned to people who went on to

12 become Pioneers, so it is a subset of all of

13 the solicitor tracking forms signed by

14 authorized agents of the campaign, this

15 subset relating to Pioneers.

16 MS. DANETZ: Okay, great.

17 THE WITNESS: That's right. He

18 said it much more eloquently than I could.

19 MR. BERGER: If you want

20 collective information, we are here to give

21 you collective information.

22 MS. DANETZ: I have to say I am


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1 happy to have collective information as long

2 as you are representing it's from Bush for

3 President or Bush-Cheney 2000.

4 MR. BERGER: We are going to do

5 our level best to make sure you get that

6 information, whether it's from him or from

7 me.

8 (Discussion off the record)


10 Q Once somebody was an authorized

11 agent of the campaign and had a number, did

12 they indicate in some way that donations

13 were the result of their fund raising

14 efforts to the campaign?

15 A What do you mean by indicate?

16 Q In other words -- and I'll just,

17 to move this along -- press reports have

18 indicated that if somebody raised money and

19 they wanted attribution to their tracking

20 number that they would write the tracking

21 number on the check that they had solicited.

22 Is that accurate?


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1 A Oh, I'm sure there are occasions

2 where individuals indicated on the response

3 device cards.

4 Q I'm sorry, the --

5 A A card. The federal law requires

6 you to -- I don't know if you have one of

7 those or not. I don't know if there's one

8 in existence.

9 The Federal Election Law requires

10 you to get the following information when

11 someone gives more than $200. Employer

12 information. The wording -- and don't quote

13 me on this -- but I think it's best

14 estimates -- best efforts to get that

15 information.

16 Q What was that card called?

17 A It's a response device.

18 Q Response device?

19 A Uh-huh. If you are coming to a

20 state, you've got to mail in a card and tell

21 them you are coming. It's called a response

22 device.


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1 Q So I guess I don't understand.

2 How do tracking numbers relate to the

3 response device card?

4 A There was a place on the response

5 device where you could put in a tracking

6 number.

7 Q So if an authorized agent -- I

8 guess I'm curious. Why would something sent

9 out from an authorized agent result in a

10 response device card coming back to the

11 campaign?

12 A Well, if you send out a letter --

13 let's say someone sent out a letter, okay?

14 On behalf of the campaign. Then they would

15 include in that response device -- they

16 would potentially include the response

17 device and an envelope for it to be sent

18 back by Bush for President.

19 Q When you say someone sent out a

20 letter, you mean an agent of the campaign

21 sent out a letter?

22 A Uh-huh.


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1 Q To a bunch of people? To who?

2 A To whomever he or she were

3 soliciting contributions from.

4 Q So an authorized agent of the

5 campaign would sent out -- can I call it a

6 solicitation?

7 A Sure.

8 Q So an authorized agent would send

9 out a solicitation to people who they were

10 trying to fund raise from, on behalf of Bush

11 for President; is that accurate?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Then included in that letter would

14 be this response device card that you were

15 talking about?

16 A Sure.

17 Q In the letter from the agent to

18 whoever was being solicited, would they

19 indicate, you know, my tracking number is X?

20 How did the person who was the target of the

21 solicitation know a particular tracking

22 number to write on the response device card?


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1 A I don't know how they would know.

2 I mean, the response device card may --

3 somebody may have filled it in before they

4 sent in the little the space that said

5 tracking number, or they could have

6 encouraged people in the body of the letter

7 to put a tracking number on it.

8 Q Was it a common practice for the

9 agents to write tracking numbers on the

10 response device card?

11 A I don't know. I don't know if it

12 was a common practice. I'm sure it

13 occurred.

14 Q Well, by the definition of the

15 word agent -- I'm not trying to trick you,

16 I'm really trying to understand here -- if

17 they were an agent of the campaign, they are

18 doing it on behalf of the campaign?

19 A Right.

20 Q Is that true? You are here today

21 to testify on behalf of the campaign; is

22 that true?


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1 A That's correct.

2 Q So what I'm trying to understand

3 is, was it a regular practice of the

4 campaign through the particular agents to

5 write a particular tracking number on the

6 response device card that would then be sent

7 back in?

8 A I think there are people that were

9 authorized agents that did that, yes. I

10 don't know if it was a regular practice of

11 the campaign. It was probably more a

12 practice of the agent, he or she themselves.

13 Q Do you know, in your capacity as a

14 representative of Bush for President, do you

15 know of other ways that agents conveyed or

16 told the people they were soliciting, this

17 is the tracking number, and I would like you

18 to write it either on your response device

19 card or somewhere else to let the campaign

20 know?

21 A Sure. People put that in letters

22 as well.


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1 Q I see. So if you know, what would

2 be an example of something that someone

3 would write in a letter?

4 A You are asking me for speculation.

5 You could put, please put my personal

6 tracking number, you know, 1234, on your

7 checks, as I'm trying to become a Pioneer.

8 Q Now, when the campaign received

9 checks and/or response device cards, and

10 they had tracking numbers on it, what did

11 they do with that information?

12 A I think it was -- when the checks

13 came in from individuals, they usually came

14 in to -- they would come in to one of the

15 staff, and they would be tracked. There

16 would be a computer indication, an entry

17 into a computer, that they had received a

18 contribution on behalf -- they had received

19 a contribution with that tracking number on

20 it.

21 Q I see, so was there a spreadsheet

22 of some sort maintained?


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1 A We have produced for you -- the

2 lawyers have produced for you our

3 information about how much people's tracking

4 numbers had by them.

5 Q Right, and I appreciate that and

6 I'm happy to have that document. I don't

7 mean to be glib, but what I'm trying to

8 determine is, if during the campaign there

9 was a spreadsheet maintained that had a

10 tracking number, perhaps other information,

11 and also was used to track the contributions

12 that came in for that particular tracking

13 number.

14 A Oh, I think there probably --

15 yeah, I don't know if it's a spreadsheet,

16 but I think people kept lists, sure.

17 Q So I'm trying to understand, how

18 was that information maintained? Who kept

19 those lists?

20 MR. BERGER: I can help with part

21 of that, because there may be come

22 confusion. The spreadsheet that we produced


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1 to you was merged in a document which we

2 created, which was the identity of the

3 Pioneer with the historical spreadsheet

4 maintained by the campaign.

5 That's where the column in the

6 information that says contributions as of

7 March 31st comes from. That was a

8 contemporaneous document prepared by the

9 campaign, and we merged them for you so that

10 you would have that.

11 I think the remaining part of your

12 question is, who was responsible within the

13 campaign for maintaining that spreadsheet?

14 THE WITNESS: Is that right?

15 MS. DANETZ: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: The spreadsheet was

17 kept by -- the regional people kept them for

18 individual people in the regions.


20 Q So again, I'm going to refer back

21 to your individual testimony, and tell me

22 and/or correct me if I'm mischaracterizing


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1 it, but I believe you stated that there were

2 four regional people who worked for the

3 campaign; is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q I believe you identified them in

6 your personal deposition; is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 MR. BERGER: Have their names

9 changed in the last hour?



12 Q They were, just for making it

13 clear --

14 MR. BERGER: Beth Sturgeon?


16 MR. BERGER: Travis Thomas?


18 MR. BONIFAZ: Mary Kay Kelly, now

19 Johnson?

20 THE WITNESS: Kelly, now Johnson.

21 MR. BERGER: Heather Larison?



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2 Q So those were the four regional

3 people that would have maintained

4 spreadsheets for agents from their

5 particular region?

6 A Sure.

7 Q This might go back to my

8 confusion, so feel free to jump in if

9 necessary.

10 Was there a form of how the

11 spreadsheet was maintained? In other words,

12 did they all maintain the same information

13 within their respective spreadsheets?

14 A I don't know what particulars they

15 kept within their individual spreadsheets.

16 A lot of people kept their own list, too. A

17 lot of the individual people who wanted to

18 be Pioneers kept a list, too.

19 Q I want to go to Exhibit 2 again.

20 A This one?

21 Q Yes.

22 A Okay.


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1 Q There's a lot of information asked

2 for in this document, and if you notice

3 about halfway down, the form asks for the

4 industry; is that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q Could you tell me why the Bush

7 Exploratory Committee and also the Bush for

8 President, Inc. asked what industry the

9 particular agent was affiliated with?

10 A For purposes of probably knowledge

11 of what industry they were involved in.

12 Q Well, right, but I mean, I'm

13 assuming that the campaign didn't ask for

14 extraneous information, so I'm just

15 wondering what particular interest the

16 campaign had in the industry.

17 So for example, just by way of

18 explanation, I can understand why it's of

19 interest to the campaign that in this

20 case -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- Peter

21 Adams pledged to try to raise $100,000 by

22 September 1st, because the campaign was


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1 engaged in fund raising and presumably

2 wanted the money early.

3 Have I stated anything that seems

4 untrue so far?

5 MR. BERGER: There's a lot in that

6 question, so rather than arguing over the

7 form, are you focused on the September 1st

8 date, the employer/occupation information or

9 the amount? Because you mentioned all three

10 of those in your question.


12 Q I'll go through it step by step

13 because I think it will be easier, with the

14 ultimate goal being my trying to understand

15 why a campaign wants to know the industry

16 that an agent is involved in, okay?

17 I understand why you need to know

18 the person's name, because you need to know

19 who is raising money for you. I understand

20 why you need to know the employer and the

21 occupation, because I believe you said that

22 that is required in the best efforts. Is


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1 that true when you were talking about the

2 response device card?

3 A The Federal Election Law requires,

4 you know, if someone is going to donate any

5 amount over $200, you are required to make a

6 best efforts to go and find their employer

7 and occupation, that's correct.

8 Q So I understand why you would ask

9 that because it seems like that's going

10 toward those best efforts.

11 Since the campaign was fund

12 raising, I can understand why you would want

13 to know that they pledged to raise $100,000.

14 Again, correct me if I'm wrong in why you

15 need to know this, but it seems to me that a

16 campaign wants to be able to project how

17 much money they have.

18 Is that kind of why you want to

19 know how much this person is pledging to

20 raise?

21 A You want to know how much money

22 the person is pledging to raise so you can


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1 try to figure out what kind of resource

2 potential is out there.

3 Q I see. Does asking them to pledge

4 a certain amount also encourage them to

5 actually go out and raise that amount as

6 opposed to a lesser amount? I'm asking. It

7 could be that you don't know.

8 MR. BERGER: The premise of your

9 question was I think you said asking them to

10 pledge a certain amount. I don't think he

11 ever said they asked them to pledge a

12 certain amount. It says "I agree to pledge"

13 but I don't think that he ever said the

14 campaign asked them to pledge a certain

15 amount.


17 Q I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that.

18 In filling out this form, the

19 person, we will say, is requested by the

20 form to indicate how much money they are

21 pledging to raise, okay? I'm trying to get

22 at what purpose does that serve.


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1 MR. BERGER: I think you answered

2 that, but if there's anything you have to

3 add to your answer. Resource potential?

4 THE WITNESS: Trying to find out

5 what the resource potential is.


7 Q Going to this September 1st date,

8 does it help the campaign to know a date by

9 which an agent is going to try to raise a

10 certain amount?

11 A Sure.

12 Q How does it help?

13 A Gives you a sense of the kind of

14 budget, you know, when they think they will

15 accomplish what they are trying to

16 accomplish.

17 Q Then again, the last line that's

18 filled out is signature. Does the campaign

19 seek that information through the form to

20 verify that this person is in fact pledging

21 this amount? What is the purpose of the

22 signature?


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1 A I don't know what the purpose of

2 the signature was. I don't know what the

3 purpose of the signature was.

4 Q Does the signature indicate that

5 in this case Peter Adams is actually almost

6 signing off, if you will, that he will

7 pledge to raise $100,000?

8 MR. BERGER: You mean is it

9 contractual?

10 MS. DANETZ: No, I just --

11 MR. BERGER: Let's make this

12 easier.

13 THE WITNESS: I have no earthly

14 idea.

15 MS. DANETZ: I'll move on because

16 it's really not that important.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.


19 Q To go back to the line that says

20 my industry is blank, I'm trying to

21 understand, because I haven't worked in a

22 political campaign and you are the


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1 representative of a political campaign and

2 individually have worked on political

3 campaigns.

4 Of what use is it to the campaign

5 to have the person's industry identified?

6 A We were trying to reach out to as

7 many people in as many different facets of

8 life as possible, so I think that's why we

9 asked the question.

10 Q So did the campaign look to this

11 information as an indication of how well it

12 was doing outreach in particular industries?

13 A The campaign took this information

14 and had it set up system so that we knew

15 what Peter Adams was doing, and this

16 individual, as solicitor tracking No. 7612.

17 That was the purpose of the information.

18 Q I'm sorry, I don't want to

19 mischaracterize again, so you put the

20 industry information into some form of

21 computerized filing? Could you just explain

22 what you are talking about?


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1 A Peter Adams -- I didn't keep this

2 list, as I said before, but I think Peter

3 Adams would have been listed with his

4 tracking number of 7612. This would have

5 been filed at the campaign.

6 Q Sorry, the form would have been

7 filed or --

8 A The form would have been filed.

9 That's where these come from.

10 MR. BERGER: The question was how,

11 if at all, did the Bush for President

12 campaign use the industry information shown

13 on forms like Exhibit 2?

14 MS. DANETZ: Yes, that's exactly

15 what I'm trying to find out. Thank you.

16 MR. BERGER: Can you help her?

17 THE WITNESS: The purpose of

18 figuring that out was to try to figure out

19 where we had a lot of people helping us and

20 where we didn't. We wanted to reach out to

21 as many different groups as possible in

22 different varieties, in different walks of


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1 life. So I think that was the purpose of

2 and the usefulness of that.


4 Q So was there somebody who or did

5 the campaign keep track of, we have people

6 from this industry, we have people from this

7 industry? Was that something the campaign

8 kept track of?

9 A We kept track of individuals in

10 their functions as individuals. I'm sure

11 there were people -- I'm sure that we

12 noticed whether or not there were people

13 involved in different industries in fund

14 raising effort.

15 Q Was there an attempt to get people

16 from particular industries involved in the

17 campaign?

18 A We wanted to reach out as broad as

19 humanly possible, to touch as many different

20 segments of America as we could.

21 Q So can I take that, then, to

22 mean -- and again, I know you will correct


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1 me if I'm wrong -- that you sought to get

2 people from every industry involved because

3 that would be like the broadest brush?

4 A We tried to get people involved in

5 a variety of -- in every geographic group

6 possible. We were trying to get as many

7 people involved in the campaign as humanly

8 possible.

9 Q I'm still not getting the

10 information I'm trying to get. I don't want

11 to kind of belabor the point, but I'm trying

12 to come up with a way to ask you that will

13 be as succinct as my friend, Mr. Berger

14 here, asked.

15 MR. BERGER: Part of the reason

16 why maybe you are confused is because of the

17 type of information that was redacted,

18 because he has got in mind what the form

19 looks like when it's not redacted, and you

20 haven't seen it, because he is talking about

21 all these different points of connection.

22 There's also personal geographic


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1 information and other types of information

2 that we have redacted to protect personal

3 privacy. You are focussing on what is left

4 here, and he is thinking about industry,

5 geographic and other types of information.


7 Q Just to give you a sense of what

8 I'm trying to figure out, I'm still trying

9 to get a sense of -- with respect to

10 industry in particular, let's forget about

11 what is redacted because I have no idea what

12 it is anyway -- to what use did the campaign

13 put this information about industry?

14 A As I've said, we wanted to reach

15 out to as broad a spectrum as possible, so I

16 think that that would have been the use, but

17 the specific purpose of this form was, as we

18 have discussed, to get the name and give

19 them a number.

20 Q Was there, say, a time within the

21 campaign -- obviously focusing on the

22 primaries since that's when you were raising


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1 money -- or during the Exploratory Committee

2 where there was a determination made that,

3 you know, we have people in this industry,

4 we have people in that industry, but it

5 looks like we have a whole -- we don't have

6 anybody from, say -- and I'm really just

7 pulling this out of the air -- the

8 telecommunications industry, or some other

9 industry that maybe you felt like had not

10 been involved in the campaign and you wanted

11 to kind of do further outreach to that

12 particular industry?

13 A I don't really remember a specific

14 meeting where that was discussed, but we

15 were looking for universally people. People

16 who had gone to Harvard Business School with

17 then Governor George W. Bush, people who

18 were in the arts community, people who were

19 in the investment management -- whatever

20 that means -- industry.

21 We were trying to find as many

22 different touch points as we possibly could.


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1 Q But the form doesn't ask about,

2 say, are you involved in the arts or did you

3 go to Harvard Business School with then

4 Governor Bush. So I'm still trying to get

5 to why this form inquired about the industry

6 of the person.

7 A I didn't draft the form so I can't

8 answer the question.

9 Q Right, but you are here in your

10 capacity as a representative of the

11 campaign, so although you have no personal

12 knowledge, you have an obligation to provide

13 this information to the extent it was

14 available in an investigation?

15 MR. BERGER: He understands that.

16 Based on your investigation and your own

17 personal knowledge and the other sources of

18 information that are available to you, do

19 you have an understanding why the campaign

20 sought industry information?

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, to make sure

22 that we were involving as many people in as


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1 many different places as humanly possible.

2 MR. BERGER: I think she asked you

3 another question, just to move this along,

4 which was, did the campaign track

5 information given by industry using this

6 industry information.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it

8 was done or not on a formal basis. I don't

9 know.


11 Q Do you know whether it was done ad

12 hoc?

13 A It may have been. People may

14 have -- I mean, we clearly reached out to

15 different groups of people.

16 MS. DANETZ: Sorry, could you just

17 go back and remind me what the last question

18 was?

19 (The reporter read the record as

20 requested.)

21 THE WITNESS: I think that there

22 were instances where people came together in


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1 a particular industry, tried to reach out

2 within that industry, so it may have been

3 done on an informal basis.


5 Q Do you know of any examples of

6 that?

7 A The Harvard Business School is the

8 one that comes to my mind.

9 Q What did Harvard Business School

10 do?

11 A There were a group of people that

12 had gone to Harvard Business School with the

13 governor, and we wanted to make sure we

14 reached out to that group of people.

15 Q Was there anybody who came

16 together on behalf of the electric utility

17 industry?

18 A I don't know. I don't know if the

19 electric industry as itself had a group.

20 There were people in the electric industry

21 that raised money for the campaign.

22 Q Who would that be?


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1 A In preparing for my testimony I

2 reviewed a memo from Tom Kuhn, who worked

3 for the Electric Industry Association, I

4 think is his official capacity.

5 While you are commenting, I'm

6 going to quick go to the bathroom.

7 MS. DANETZ: Sure.

8 (Recess)


10 Q I'm just going to go through a

11 series of questions, and I think that they

12 will require a yes or no, but obviously you

13 have figured out the routine by now. If

14 they don't, you won't answer them that way.

15 In the campaign's efforts to reach

16 out to different communities of interest,

17 did the campaign reach out to the banking

18 industry?

19 A I think there were individuals

20 that helped us in the campaign that were

21 part of the banking industry.

22 Q Now, would you say that the


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1 campaign reached out to people who went to

2 Harvard Business School with then Governor

3 Bush?

4 A No, there were people -- I mean,

5 yes, we reached out in the sense of we

6 encouraged them, but people came to us that

7 went to Harvard Business School and said, we

8 want to get together and do the Harvard

9 Business School thing.

10 Q So is the same thing true with the

11 banking industry?

12 A There were individuals that had

13 helped the Governor in his campaign for

14 Governor that were in the banking world that

15 participated in the campaign.

16 Q Did the campaign reach out to the

17 insurance industry?

18 A I think there were individuals in

19 the campaign that were part of the insurance

20 industry, yes.

21 Q Can you name any of them offhand?

22 A I can't, I'm sorry.


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1 That's not true. Hank Greenberg

2 is in the insurance industry. That would be

3 Hank Morris Greenberg.

4 Q I was going to ask about that.

5 What about individuals in the

6 banking industry? I know you've already

7 answered my question about whether the

8 campaign reached out to the banking

9 industry, but were there people involved in

10 the campaign who were in the banking

11 industry?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Who were they?

14 A I don't know the specific, but I

15 can just -- I'm sure there is somebody that

16 was in the banking industry that was

17 involved in the campaign.

18 MR. BERGER: Is your question

19 whether there were Pioneers who were in the

20 banking industry?


22 Q Sure. Let's make it, were there


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1 Pioneers who were --

2 A In the banking industry?

3 Q Yes.

4 A I think so.

5 Q Did the campaign reach out to the

6 oil industry?

7 A There were people that had

8 supported the Governor in the past who were

9 in the oil industry who were involved in the

10 campaign, yes.

11 Q So the campaign then reached out

12 to people in the oil industry; is that true?

13 A There were people in the campaign

14 who were in the oil industry who supported

15 the Governor and had supported the Governor

16 and wanted to help him become president.

17 MS. DANETZ: Can we just take a

18 two-minute break?


20 (Recess)

21 MR. BERGER: Just for your

22 planning purposes, we have a tired witness


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1 on our hands, so we are going to end

2 at 7:30. If you are finished, you are

3 finished. If not, we will have to come up

4 with an alternative. So let's use that as

5 our target.

6 MR. BONIFAZ: Just to be clear on

7 the record, we are going to end this portion

8 of the deposition and decide at 7:30 whether

9 we are closing the deposition or whether we

10 are going to continue.

11 MR. BERGER: Options are open on

12 either side of the table, which includes if

13 you can't get it done by 7:30, let's see

14 where we are, but let's see if we can get it

15 finished by 7:30.


17 Q I'm trying to make this as

18 interesting as possible.

19 Going back to Exhibit 2, yes, and

20 the other documents that the campaign

21 produced that we have discussed, at least

22 the forms are similar to the one that is


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1 marked as Exhibit 2, with different

2 information filled into the forms.

3 Who retained the hard copies of

4 these forms?

5 A I think they were retained by the

6 counsel's office. They were either retained

7 by the counsel's office or by somebody on my

8 team. I don't know.

9 Q By that do you mean the legal

10 counsel?

11 A Yeah.

12 Q Who was the --

13 MR. GINSBERG: They were in my

14 office.

15 MS. DANETZ: Do you just want to

16 identify yourself for the record?

17 MR. BERGER: That's Ben Ginsberg.

18 He was the outside general counsel for the

19 campaign.

20 MS. DANETZ: Okay.

21 MR. BERGER: The document states

22 that the white copy of the original was


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1 probably in the individual's files, the

2 yellow copy was in state finance chairman

3 files, so that's an answer with respect to

4 what is identified here as the pink copies,

5 and I can tell you this was copied from the

6 pink copies.


8 Q The yellow copy went to state

9 finance chairman. How does that relate to

10 the agents who had the tracking numbers?

11 A What do you mean?

12 Q Well, in other words, the agents

13 who had tracking numbers, were they kind of

14 in an organizational structure, reporting to

15 a state finance chair? How was it

16 determined what yellow copy went to who?

17 MR. BERGER: What was the

18 relationship between the state finance chair

19 and the national finance director and the

20 national finance chair?

21 THE WITNESS: The state chairs

22 were part of the team that was helping us in


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1 the individual states.


3 Q So there was a state finance chair

4 for each state in the United States?

5 A Yeah.

6 Q Did, say, all of the agents who

7 were assigned tracking numbers who came from

8 Pennsylvania, for example, were they all

9 underneath organizationally the state

10 finance chair or was that kind of a -- was

11 that parallel in the organizational

12 structure?

13 I'm trying to understand the

14 relationship between the state finance

15 chairs and the agents who had tracking

16 numbers.

17 MR. BERGER: It's outside the

18 scope of the notice, but we will do our best

19 to help you on that, but there's no topic on

20 the organizations of the finance operation,

21 but let's see if we can get you an answer in

22 terms of -- is your question did individual


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1 agents who lived in state X have any direct

2 report responsibilities to the state finance

3 chair of the same state?

4 MS. DANETZ: Yes. Just to be

5 clear, I'm asking this question because it

6 seems to me it's listed on the document, so

7 to the extent that it arises from the

8 document, I do believe it's within the

9 scope.

10 MR. BERGER: We will try to get

11 you an answer. I just wanted to make sure I

12 understood the question.

13 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.

14 MR. GINSBERG: Did individual

15 agents report to the state finance chair?

16 THE WITNESS: Report in what? I

17 don't understand. We wanted to make sure

18 the state chairmen knew who had signed up in

19 their state to help. That was really the

20 purpose of the whole thing.

21 MS. DANETZ: Thank you. That's

22 good enough.


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2 Q In terms of the pink copies -- and

3 I'll direct this question to you with the

4 understanding that then you might jump in

5 because you might have the knowledge -- how

6 were these documents filed?

7 By that I mean, were they filed

8 alphabetically? Were they filed

9 chronologically by tracking number? Were

10 they filed by industry? I mean, I'm just

11 curious.

12 A I don't know how you filed them.

13 MR. GINSBERG: I think they were

14 filed geographically. They were state by

15 state notebooks, I think alphabetically by

16 state.

17 THE WITNESS: That would make

18 sense.


20 Q How about the individual state

21 finance chairs? Do you know how they filed

22 their hard copies?


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1 A I don't know.

2 Q Getting back to the tracking

3 system, we may have gone over this. I'm

4 getting tired, too.

5 A That's okay.

6 Q When, say, a check or a response

7 device card came in and it had a tracking

8 number, I believe you said that was input to

9 a computer system somewhere; is that true?

10 A When the check came in from a

11 state it would have gone to the person that

12 was responsible for that state, one of those

13 regional people we talked about.

14 Q Oh, right, thank you. Each of

15 those regional people kept their own

16 spreadsheets, I think you stated?

17 A Yes.

18 Q In your investigation for today

19 and in producing the spreadsheet that you

20 did that listed the contributions for the

21 individual tracking numbers, did you consult

22 these four different spreadsheets that would


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1 have been maintained by the regional people?

2 MR. BERGER: There's a premise to

3 your question which was not correct. There

4 were four different regional spreadsheets.

5 What we did was, from the

6 available records of the campaign, to the

7 extent they are maintained by either

8 Mr. Oliver here individually, by his

9 records, to the extent the campaign's

10 records are in the possession of his legal

11 counsel, they were searched.

12 To the extent that we were able to

13 find any other existing records of the

14 campaign, that is the spreadsheets that we

15 consulted.

16 MS. DANETZ: I'm not trying to

17 suggest that there were spreadsheets out

18 there that were ignored in producing what

19 you did, but I thought I understood

20 Mr. Oliver to say that the individual

21 regional people, the four regional people,

22 would have each maintained a spreadsheet.


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1 I'm not suggesting that they still exist.

2 I'm just --

3 MR. BERGER: I'm not sure what he

4 did say. I think your question was who

5 input the data. He said he didn't

6 individually, but he believes that the

7 people who did were probably either the

8 regional finance people or someone else.


10 Q So did each of the regional people

11 maintain a spreadsheet?

12 A They may have. I don't know if

13 they specifically had a spreadsheet that

14 followed a form. I think they maintained

15 records. All of them maintained records.

16 MS. DANETZ: I'm going to be

17 referring to BFP 151.

18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

19 MR. BERGER: They want to look at

20 the spreadsheet that was produced.

21 MS. DANETZ: No, BFP 151.

22 THE WITNESS: Is that one of


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1 these?

2 MS. DANETZ: It's one of the

3 forms.

4 THE WITNESS: Tell me where.

5 MR. BERGER: I'll find it for you.

6 151.

7 MS. DANETZ: In fact, we are going

8 to give it to you as an exhibit, so could we

9 mark this as BFP Exhibit 3, please.

10 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 3

11 was marked for identification.)


13 Q Can you identify BFP 151 for me?

14 A It's a solicitor tracking form

15 No. 1114 for Dan Cook.

16 Q Sorry, that was 1114?

17 A Yes, ma'am.

18 Q To me it looks like there is a

19 copy of perhaps what was a Post-It note on

20 the original? Is that accurate?

21 A This?

22 Q Yes.


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1 A I don't know. I haven't seen the

2 document itself, but it looks that it could

3 be.

4 Q If you just want to look at what

5 looks like it's on a Post-It note?

6 A That does look like it's a Post-It

7 note, yeah.

8 Q Can you tell me who Kate is?

9 A Kate Marinas was one of the staff

10 members on the finance operation.

11 Q That would be at the national

12 level or at a regional level or --

13 A She worked for a lot of people.

14 She worked -- she was kind of a helper in

15 this instance. The regional people worked

16 at the national level. I mean, those four

17 people worked for me at the national level.

18 Q So you were all in the same

19 office?

20 A Yeah.

21 Q Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

22 A I should have told you that. I'm


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1 sorry. Yeah, we were all in the same

2 office.

3 Q I see. Can you tell me who this

4 note is from?

5 A It looks like Clare.

6 Q Who is Clare?

7 A Clare, that -- I don't know for

8 sure, but I would assume that that's Clare

9 Pritchett, who worked on the campaign as

10 well, in the finance division.

11 Q What was her title?

12 A I think she was a finance

13 assistant, staff assistant.

14 Q What does that mean she did? What

15 were her responsibilities?

16 MR. BERGER: Wrote Post-It notes.

17 THE WITNESS: Answer the phone. I

18 mean --

19 MR. GINSBERG: She assisted

20 regional finance directors?

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean, she

22 worked with the regional finance directors.


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1 She did that. It was, you know --


3 Q Sorry, and you said that Kate was

4 one of those regional --

5 A No.

6 Q No? I'm sorry.

7 MR. BERGER: Kate worked for you.

8 THE WITNESS: Kate worked for me

9 and the regional finance directors. She was

10 a staff assistant as well.


12 Q So this note says "Kate, for

13 spreadsheet filing, Clare."

14 A Right.

15 Q What does that refer to? What is

16 the instruction?

17 A I don't know the answer to that

18 question. I don't know what Clare was

19 thinking when she did that.

20 MR. BERGER: We spoke to the

21 eponymous Kate here to ask her, when you

22 raised the question with me about whether


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1 there is a spreadsheet, and that is where we

2 found the information that we then used to

3 produce the spreadsheet to you.

4 She indicated that, yes, in fact a

5 spreadsheet was maintained with information

6 that came in as Mr. Oliver has described it

7 using tracking numbers. That's how they in

8 fact compiled the information to know

9 whether somebody got to the Pioneer level.

10 THE WITNESS: The filing would be

11 then sent to the counsel for filing, you

12 know, as we talked about. There's the first

13 one. The third one we kept and gave to the

14 counsel's office.


16 Q It may be that Mitch has to answer

17 this question, but the spreadsheets that

18 were used to create the spreadsheet that you

19 gave to us, where is that kept?

20 MR. BERGER: We have it.

21 MS. DANETZ: Well, who gave it to

22 you?


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1 MR. BERGER: Well, let me see. We

2 got that, I think, either from Mr. Oliver or

3 from -- I always thought it was Kate

4 Marinas, but obviously I mispronounced her

5 name, Kate Marinas.


7 Q Did you produce that spreadsheet

8 to --

9 A I don't know. I mean, I don't

10 know what was produced from me and what was

11 produced from other sources.

12 MR. BERGER: Let me make this

13 completely unmysterious.

14 Certain records of the campaign

15 are kept in paper form like the famous pink

16 sheets. Other records were copied onto the

17 CD. Duplicates of the CD, to the best of my

18 understanding, were maintained both by

19 Mr. Oliver and Kate Marinas.

20 From those CDs we looked for

21 information that provided both spreadsheets

22 and, for example, those were the documents


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1 that were searched to see whether or not

2 there were any policy communications as you

3 requested.

4 MS. DANETZ: Do we know during the

5 campaign who maintained these, the

6 spreadsheets or the information that went on

7 the CD that came to you?

8 MR. BERGER: Who individually?

9 MS. DANETZ: Yes, within the

10 campaign.

11 MR. BERGER: I know it was a

12 member of the finance operation.

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know the

14 individual. I think it was maintained by

15 multiple people.


17 Q Was there any information on those

18 spreadsheets that were on the CDs that was

19 not incorporated into the spreadsheet that

20 you produced?

21 MR. BERGER: Yes.

22 MS. DANETZ: Beyond, say, redacted


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1 information of address?

2 MR. BERGER: Yes.

3 MS. DANETZ: Was information was

4 that?

5 MR. BERGER: Well, if I wanted you

6 to know, I wouldn't have redacted it. It

7 was information that we considered to be

8 outside the scope of what we had negotiated.

9 MS. DANETZ: Well, let me get more

10 specific, then. Did that information

11 include the industry of the person?

12 MR. BERGER: I don't think so,

13 because obviously we know you are interested

14 in that. That's why we went to great

15 efforts to leave in industry information

16 here. I'll doublecheck that. I think it's

17 hard to believe we would have done it given

18 your obvious interest in it.

19 MS. DANETZ: Okay, but you will

20 let me know?

21 MR. BERGER: Absolutely.

22 MS. DANETZ: Whether or not that


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1 spreadsheet included the information about

2 the industry that was of the particular

3 person as indicated on the form?

4 MR. BERGER: Yeah, absolutely. I

5 can tell you, because of the scope we

6 negotiated here, that we have searched for

7 and looked to see whether there were any

8 reports, for example, that were prepared on

9 a spreadsheet by industry that would say, X

10 industry is credited with having contributed

11 Y amount of money to the campaign.

12 We found no such report, which I

13 think is part of what you are asking about

14 in terms of the spreadsheet.

15 MS. DANETZ: Right. Also what I'm

16 trying to understand with the spreadsheet

17 is, I don't know if you are aware how

18 spreadsheets work. I assume you are, but if

19 that is a piece of information, that

20 spreadsheet could be sorted by industry, and

21 that's what I'm trying to determine.

22 MR. BERGER: Right. I think that


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1 you could fairly ask this witness. I mean,

2 if he is aware whether the campaign ever

3 generated a report like that.

4 MS. DANETZ: Mr. Oliver?

5 MR. BONIFAZ: More than whether he

6 is aware. I mean, this isn't about his

7 personal knowledge.

8 MR. BERGER: I understand, but

9 this is also, to cut right to the bottom

10 line here, a deposition of a third party

11 that is not actively in operation. He is

12 doing the best he can with records and

13 people all over the place to come up with

14 information and answer your question. So

15 the best knowledge of the organization is

16 what you are entitled to, and that is the

17 effort that we have put together. That

18 doesn't mean it's perfect information.

19 MR. BONIFAZ: It's more than what

20 he is aware of, that's all.

21 MR. BERGER: It's more than what

22 he was aware of, but the guy is a national


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1 finance director and he is the most likely

2 person to know this.

3 THE WITNESS: What is the question

4 you want to ask me about this?


6 Q To the best of your knowledge,

7 based on your investigation, in your

8 capacity as a representative of the

9 campaign, did the campaign ever sort

10 contributors, or I should say Pioneers and

11 potential Pioneers, who had tracking numbers

12 by industry?

13 A I'm thinking. I don't remember

14 that we ever had a specific -- a spreadsheet

15 which said Pioneer X is in Y. I don't

16 remember a specific spreadsheet that had it

17 listed by industry based upon that, but

18 there clearly was -- you knew there were

19 multiple people that were part of a certain

20 industry, and it wouldn't be hard to take

21 their tracking numbers on an informal basis

22 and add them together if you had the


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1 knowledge of who they were.

2 Q Did the campaign ever do that?

3 A I don't remember if the campaign

4 ever did that specifically for every

5 industry, no.

6 Q For any industry?

7 A I think the campaign did do that

8 for the Harvard Business School piece,

9 because there was a letter that specifically

10 went out for the Harvard Business School

11 group.

12 Q How about for the electric utility

13 industry?

14 A I don't remember specifically a

15 group that was put together, a spreadsheet

16 that showed the electric utility industry.

17 Q Can you remember any other

18 particular industry, besides the Harvard

19 Business School group that you've already

20 mentioned? Can you remember any other

21 industry for which the campaign sorted

22 information in the manner we have been


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1 discussing?

2 A Yeah, I think there were some

3 people in the airline industry as well that

4 we did, that that was sorted from, because I

5 think they sent a letter together, but I

6 don't remember the specifics of it. That's

7 my memory of the airline group.

8 Q Any other industries besides the

9 airline industry?

10 A There may be but I don't remember

11 specifics.

12 MS. DANETZ: At this point I'm

13 going to turn the deposition over to

14 Mr. Bonifaz, assuming you don't have an

15 objection.

16 MR. BERGER: I'm going to keep my

17 options open to object because I'm not sure

18 we are most efficiently using the witness's

19 time, but let's see where we are.

20 (Recess)


22 Q Mr. Oliver, you just stated that


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1 there was some sorting done for the airline

2 industry; is that correct?

3 A No, there was individuals that

4 were involved in the airline industry that I

5 think that asked for what they have done,

6 and we may have sorted it for them by

7 individual, because the tracking numbers

8 were individuals.

9 Q Approximately do you remember when

10 they asked?

11 A I don't remember.

12 Q Why would they have asked for that

13 information?

14 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for

15 speculation. You may answer.

16 THE WITNESS: I don't know.


18 Q How did you answer that request?

19 What did you provide them?

20 A I think we pulled their individual

21 tracking numbers and gave it to them, but

22 that would be my guesstimate of what


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1 happened.

2 Q Who asked for this information in

3 particular?

4 A I don't remember specifically who

5 asked for it.

6 Q Any other industries for which the

7 campaign sorted the tracking numbers and the

8 industries together?

9 A I don't remember. There could

10 have been but I don't remember.

11 MR. BONIFAZ: So I just want to

12 get on the record here, this 30(b)(6)

13 deponent is stating that he doesn't

14 remember, there could be. This is not a

15 sufficient answer in a 30(b)(6) deposition.

16 MR. BERGER: I'll tell you what.

17 I've had enough of this. If you want to

18 play games like this, we are going to shut

19 this down now. When he said he doesn't

20 know, he means he, the authorized

21 representative of this campaign, doesn't

22 know. We have made inquiry of those who are


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1 likely to know.

2 When he says he doesn't know, he

3 means we don't know.

4 MR. BONIFAZ: Just to understand

5 what was stated, he didn't say we don't

6 know. He said we don't remember.

7 MR. BERGER: Well, there has been

8 something of a lack of formality in this

9 deposition. We have never even defined what

10 the questions mean when they are said to the

11 witness. When I ask you a question, I mean

12 you on behalf of the campaign, so if you

13 want to be clear about that, we can be clear

14 about all of that.

15 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought we set the

16 foundation when we began with the Notice of

17 Deposition that he was here to testify on

18 behalf of the campaign, not in his personal

19 capacity.

20 MR. BERGER: He has been prepared

21 to testify to the best information that this

22 institution has available. His answers are,


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1 as I understand from the preparation

2 process, what you would learn from any other

3 representative. They are a product of

4 speaking to a number of people affiliated

5 with this campaign.

6 There is no other designee who can

7 provide you more information than this man

8 can do.

9 MR. BONIFAZ: So the campaign's

10 testimony today is that it does not remember

11 whether any other industry sorting took

12 place other than the airline industry

13 example?

14 MR. BERGER: Correct.


16 Q Just back on this question about

17 reaching out to specific industries, you

18 have testified that the campaign made a

19 specific effort to reach out to Harvard

20 Business School alumni?

21 MR. BERGER: I think that

22 mischaracterizes his testimony.


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2 Q I'm sorry. Can you recharacterize

3 it correctly?

4 A We wanted to make sure that --

5 there were a group of people who came to us

6 that had gone to school with the Governor at

7 Harvard that wanted to make sure they -- I

8 sent a letter out on behalf to try to get as

9 many people who had been at Harvard with

10 him, to help the campaign.

11 Q Speaking on behalf of the campaign

12 as a 30(b)(6) deponent, did the campaign

13 make any specific efforts such as that for

14 the banking industry?

15 A There may have been. There were

16 individuals in the campaign who were in the

17 banking industry that I'm sure reached out

18 to individuals in the banking community, but

19 that would be national, yes.

20 Q I understand that answer. I'm

21 asking you whether the campaign, just as it

22 had made a specific effort to reach out to


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1 this Harvard Business School group, did it

2 make any specific effort to reach out to the

3 banking industry?

4 MR. BERGER: Mischaracterizes his

5 testimony. If you understand the question,

6 go ahead and answer the question.

7 MR. BONIFAZ: Please restate the

8 question. I'm really not trying to

9 mischaracterize testimony. I thought he

10 just stated --

11 MR. GINSBERG: You said it wrong

12 three times.

13 MR. BONIFAZ: Go ahead and tell me

14 what it is I said wrong.

15 MR. GINSBERG: People came to the

16 campaign, said they want to go out and

17 contact their colleagues. That's what they

18 did. That's not the campaign reaching out.

19 You have mischaracterized it repeatedly now.

20 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought there was

21 a Harvard Business School example in which

22 there was a letter that was sent out.


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1 MR. GINSBERG: I believe he

2 testified that people from Harvard Business

3 School came to the campaign, said they

4 wanted to contact their colleagues from

5 Harvard Business School and did so. You

6 have repeatedly characterized that as a

7 campaign action as opposed to volunteers

8 coming to the campaign. I'm sure we can get

9 this right at least once.

10 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we just go back

11 to the record to when he spoke about the

12 Harvard Business School situation? It would

13 have been about 10 statements ago.

14 (The reporter read the record as

15 requested.)

16 MR. BONIFAZ: That's what you

17 stated.

18 MR. GINSBERG: There were a group

19 of people who came to the campaign.

20 MR. BONIFAZ: I wanted to ask the

21 question to the witness.



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1 Q You said "I sent a letter."

2 A A letter was sent on behalf -- the

3 individuals that came to us sent a letter

4 out. It wasn't signed by me, it was signed

5 by them.

6 MR. BONIFAZ: Obviously, then, it

7 was misstated.

8 MR. BERGER: I move to strike

9 that. Don't argue with the witness. Ask a

10 question.


12 Q Did individuals associated with

13 the insurance industry come to the campaign

14 to reach out to the insurance industry?

15 A I don't know. I don't remember

16 whether or not that they had a specific

17 reach-out to the insurance industry. I'm

18 sure that there were individuals who were

19 associated with the campaign who came to the

20 campaign and wanted to raise resources for

21 the campaign and therefore went to the group

22 of people that they knew and reached out to


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1 them.

2 Q Did individuals associated with

3 the oil industry come to the campaign to

4 reach out to members of the oil industry?

5 A I'm sure there were individuals

6 who happened to be involved in the oil

7 industry that raised resources for the

8 campaign and, in doing so, talked to the

9 people that they knew.

10 Q Were these tracking numbers

11 helpful in understanding how those different

12 kinds of efforts were going?

13 A The tracking numbers were for the

14 purpose of being able to tell individuals

15 and tracking what individuals did themselves

16 as individuals.

17 Q Were they also helpful for that

18 effort, to reach out to different

19 industries?

20 MR. BERGER: Objection, ambiguous,

21 but you may answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I don't know if they


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1 were helpful. I mean, you have to ask the

2 individuals who used the tracking numbers.


4 Q Before we get to that, let's turn

5 to what is Exhibit BFP 300 to 301.

6 MR. BERGER: The witness has told

7 me that he is tired, so we have got a

8 problem here. You want testimony from him

9 to the best of his ability, but he has been

10 going since 8:00 this morning and he is

11 tired, so --

12 MR. BONIFAZ: We will have to

13 continue this.

14 MR. BERGER: Well, I'm not quite

15 sure what you are after here. I think there

16 may be other ways to get this rather than

17 having a back and forth about who is the

18 best person possible to provide you

19 information that doesn't appear to exist.

20 MR. BONIFAZ: We are moving on to

21 a different subject.

22 MR. BERGER: Maybe you should take


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1 five minutes and let him catch his breath

2 and see if we can get you some more

3 information, but I don't want him testifying

4 when he is too tired.

5 (Recess)

6 MR. BONIFAZ: So this is to be

7 marked. This is BFP 300 to 301, for those

8 who have their packets. This is to be

9 marked as BFP Exhibit No. 4.

10 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 4

11 was marked for identification.)


13 Q Mr. Oliver, do you recognize this

14 document?

15 A I have seen this document in

16 preparation for testimony.

17 Q Can you please describe what it

18 is?

19 A Looks like a facsimile cover sheet

20 from January 4th of 2000. Indicates there

21 are four pages, including the cover sheet.

22 I have two.


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1 MR. BONIFAZ: I believe the two

2 others are coming. BFP 302 and 303 will be

3 marked together. We are going to go ahead

4 and include that as one. That's part of

5 Exhibit 4.


7 Q So just to go back, does this all

8 taken together refer to the document that is

9 referenced on the facsimile cover sheet?

10 A As discussed?

11 Q Yes.

12 A Yes, I'm going to read it. Is

13 that all right?

14 Q Yes, go ahead. Please do.

15 A Okay.

16 Q I cut you off earlier. Can you

17 please describe what this document is now

18 marked as Exhibit 4?

19 A It is a fax cover sheet from

20 January 4th of 2000, a memo from Tom Kuhn of

21 May 22nd, and a memo from Tom Kuhn of

22 May 26th.


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1 Q Just for the record, is it

2 May 27th you meant to say, not May 22nd?

3 A I said May 27th and May 26th.

4 Q Yes. The cover sheet is a

5 facsimile to you; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Is that from Mr. Kuhn?

8 A It says at the bottom in the

9 right-hand corner, "From the desk of Thomas

10 R. Kuhn."

11 Q Do you remember receiving this

12 facsimile and these three pages?

13 A Yes, I do.

14 Q The three pages as well? I'm

15 sorry, I mean, four, including the cover

16 sheet?

17 A Yes, I assume that I got all four

18 pages, yes.

19 Q First, why was he sending you

20 this, to your knowledge? Why was he sending

21 you this document?

22 A If my memory is correct, it was


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1 because we had been -- a reporter had called

2 asking about the document, and I had not

3 seen it before, and so I called him and

4 asked him what the document was.

5 Q Presumably you also asked him to

6 send it to you?

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q So that refers to what the "as

9 discussed" mention is on the cover sheet?

10 A Yes.

11 Q So on what is marked as, on the

12 Bates stamp at the right-hand corner,

13 BFP 301, in that document there's a

14 statement from Mr. Kuhn on this memo. "As

15 you know, a very important part of the

16 campaign's outreach to the business

17 community is the use of tracking numbers for

18 contributions. Both Don Evans and Jack

19 Oliver have stressed the importance of

20 having our industry incorporate the No. 1178

21 tracking number in your fund raising

22 efforts."


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1 Before moving on to the rest of

2 that paragraph, did you stress the

3 importance of having the electric utilities

4 industry -- did you stress the importance of

5 having any industry incorporate a tracking

6 number into fund raising efforts?

7 A I told -- if my memory is

8 correct, 1178 is Tom's individual tracking

9 number.

10 Q So why would he say both Don Evans

11 and Jack Oliver have expressed the

12 importance of having our industry

13 incorporate the 1178 tracking number in your

14 fund raising efforts?

15 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for

16 speculation, but you may answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I don't know.


19 Q He then goes on to say in this

20 paragraph, "Listing your industry's code

21 does not prevent you, any of your individual

22 solicitors or your state, from receiving


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1 credit for soliciting a contribution. It

2 does ensure that our industry" --

3 underlined -- "is credited and that your

4 progress is listed among the other

5 business/industry sectors." All of that is

6 in bold and in caps.

7 MR. BERGER: There's no question.


9 Q Again, Mr. Oliver, why would

10 Mr. Kuhn believe that listing of what he

11 called industry's code would ensure that the

12 industry is credited?

13 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for

14 speculation. You may answer.

15 THE WITNESS: I don't know.


17 Q Did the campaign, speaking on

18 behalf of the campaign, ever give any reason

19 for Mr. Kuhn to make that kind of statement?

20 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for

21 speculation. You may answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I don't know.


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2 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Kuhn

3 the contents of these memos?

4 A Yes, I did.

5 Q Did you ever discuss the accuracy

6 of the contents of these memos?

7 A I called Mr. Kuhn to have him send

8 me the memos because I had not seen them

9 before they had gone out.

10 Q In your discussion of the contents

11 of the memos, what was the discussion?

12 A I suggested to Tom that he had not

13 followed proper procedure in sending the

14 letter up to be approved by the campaign

15 before it went out.

16 Q What was that proper procedure?

17 A We had a volunteer letter form

18 that had to be filled out, if you wanted to

19 send a letter out.

20 Q What had he done?

21 A If my memory is correct on this, I

22 called him because he hadn't followed proper


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1 procedure in that regard.

2 Q What had he done wrong? I don't

3 know.

4 A He had sent a letter out without

5 it getting approved by the campaign.

6 Q Did the letter itself have

7 language that was not in accordance with

8 proper procedure?

9 A You mean this memo?

10 Q Yes.

11 A This memo I would have corrected,

12 corrected his -- some of the things he said

13 in this memo.

14 Q What would you have corrected?

15 A That we said that I had stressed

16 the importance of having his industry

17 incorporate his personal tracking number

18 into his fund raising efforts.

19 Q Did you ask him to do anything,

20 given that he had sent this out, to make

21 that correction known to the people who

22 received it?


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1 A I don't remember if I asked him to

2 do anything or not. I probably told him if

3 he was going to send anything else out, he

4 needed to send it to the campaign and follow

5 the proper procedure before he did.

6 Q Was there any effort that the

7 campaign made to inform the recipients of

8 this memo that the information in this memo,

9 some of it at least, was not in accordance

10 with the campaign's proper procedure, was

11 incorrect?

12 A I don't remember if we sent a

13 letter to these individuals or not. I don't

14 know.

15 Q I assume, turning to page 302,

16 which is the third page of this document, in

17 the bold and underlined heading, "Now is the

18 time for each of us to identify our industry

19 colleagues in each of these major cities and

20 ask them to serve as a vice chair or

21 co-chair for their city's event," that too

22 is not in accordance with proper procedure?


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1 A I'm sorry, what do you mean by

2 that?

3 Q You've testified that this

4 statement in the second page -- first page,

5 really, of this document, second page of the

6 facsimile -- was incorrect about listing

7 industry code and so forth. I'm asking you

8 whether on the third page that statement in

9 bold and underlined that I've just read into

10 the record was also incorrect.

11 A Incorrect as to what? It looks

12 like Tom was encouraging people to identify

13 people to be involved in the fund raising

14 events.

15 Q Specifically to identify our

16 industry colleagues? Was that okay,

17 according to the campaign?

18 A No, this was not signed off on

19 beforehand. I would have indicated to him

20 that he needed to put -- needed to change

21 the language -- I would have changed the

22 language if I would have saw it before it


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1 had gone out.

2 Q How would you have changed the

3 language?

4 A I probably would have said now is

5 the time for each of us to identify people

6 in each of the major cities and ask them to

7 serve as vice chair or co-chair for their

8 city's event.

9 Q This memo, which is dated May 26,

10 has as the recipient Association Executives

11 for Bush; is that correct?

12 A That's what it says it is to.

13 Q Was there any effort that the Bush

14 campaign made to correct the language to

15 those recipients?

16 A Well, there are individuals in

17 associations that were involved in the

18 campaign, so occasionally we would have

19 conference calls with people that were

20 involved in associations.

21 Q Understood, but with respect to

22 this particular memo and the incorrect


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1 language that was used, was there any effort

2 to correct that with the recipients of this

3 memo?

4 A I don't remember.

5 Q Mr. Kuhn was given the authority

6 to use George W. Bush Presidential

7 Exploratory Committee letterhead; is that

8 right?

9 MR. BERGER: Objection,

10 misleading, but you may answer.

11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Kuhn had access

12 to George W. Bush letterhead, yes. But this

13 letter, we didn't see either of these

14 letters before they went out.


16 Q Can you identify on page two who

17 Robbie Aiken is?

18 A I think Robbie -- Robbie Aiken

19 is -- how I know Robbie Aiken is, he is an

20 advance guy, and he is a lobbyist for

21 Pinnacle Golf Company.

22 Q Bud Albright?


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1 A Bud Albright works with, I

2 think -- I could be wrong, but I think it's

3 Reliant Energy.

4 Q David Brown?

5 A I don't know.

6 Q Haley Fisackerly?

7 A Yes, he was with Intergee, the

8 company Intergee.

9 Q What is that?

10 A I think it's an energy company.

11 Q Kerrill Scrivner?

12 A Don't know.

13 Q Patsy Thompson?

14 A I don't know Patsy Thompson.

15 Q Jeanne Wolak?

16 A Don't know.

17 Q John Maxon?

18 A Don't know.

19 Q Was there any other instances,

20 Mr. Oliver, where you had communications

21 with Pioneers who had sent out documents

22 using Bush Exploratory Committee letterhead


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1 or Bush campaign letterhead that needed

2 correction?

3 A I'm sure in the course of the

4 campaign there were letters that went out

5 that we didn't see beforehand, but it was

6 our practice to -- we set out to try to make

7 our best effort to get them to send the

8 letters in before they went out.

9 Q Did you personally review each of

10 those letters that went out?

11 A I don't think so. I think that

12 they were done by the regional people, and

13 then -- I don't remember what the exact

14 legal sign-off form is. I don't know if we

15 provided a copy or not. I don't know if one

16 exists anymore. But I think that there

17 was -- the lawyers signed off on it and the

18 regional people signed off on it. I may

19 have seen it in some cases and in some cases

20 not.

21 Q But speaking for the campaign, you

22 can't right now remember any other specific


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1 instance like the Kuhn situation where a

2 document was sent out by a Pioneer on

3 letterhead of the Bush campaign with this

4 kind of incorrect language?

5 A I cannot remember, no.

6 Q Turning to page three of this

7 exhibit, which is Bates stamped 302 at the

8 bottom, this memo from Mr. Kuhn starts out,

9 "Many thanks to those of you who were able

10 to join us on the May 3 conference call."

11 Do you know what that conference

12 call was about?

13 A It was probably a campaign update

14 on what was happening on the campaign.

15 Q The next sentence, "I believe it

16 was an excellent opportunity for us to

17 discuss the Governor's campaign with our

18 friends Jack Oliver and Don Evans, and I

19 know they were very appreciative of the work

20 this group is doing on behalf of the

21 Governor Bush Presidential Exploratory

22 Committee."


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1 Is it correct that you were on

2 that phone call?

3 A I assume so.

4 Q Why would you on behalf of the

5 campaign be on that phone call?

6 A I talk to people all the time.

7 Q For this particular call?

8 A We are in the business of

9 encouraging people and giving them updates

10 on what was happening in the campaign.

11 Q To your understanding, this was a

12 particular call with -- the recipients are

13 Association Executives for Bush?

14 A I don't remember the specifics of

15 who was on the call. I think they would

16 probably be heads of different associations.

17 Q What kind of associations?

18 A Associations of people that were

19 like-minded individuals.

20 Q These were people presumably,

21 though, associated with Mr. Kuhn's industry;

22 is that right?


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1 A No, I think these -- I don't know

2 if they were individuals in Tom's industry

3 or whether they were in other industries

4 that also had association people as well

5 involved.

6 Q I'm sorry, the last page, 303, the

7 third paragraph starts out, "We have

8 scheduled our next group conference call for

9 Monday June 7th, at 5:00 p.m. Daylight

10 Savings Time."

11 Do you recall being on that phone

12 call?

13 A I don't know if I was on that

14 phone call or not. We had an upcoming event

15 in Washington, so I may have been on that

16 call to encourage people to participate in

17 the Washington event.

18 Q Is it correct that that upcoming

19 event was the June 22nd event that Mr. Kuhn

20 references honoring Governor George W. Bush?

21 A Yeah.

22 Q Do you have anything more to say


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1 as to what the purpose of that June 7th

2 phone call would be?

3 A I don't know.

4 Q The next document is --

5 A Do you want this back?

6 Q You can just put it here and we

7 will take it later. Thank you.

8 This is entitled Updated List of

9 Pioneers and Potential Pioneers Prepared

10 from Available Records. This entire

11 document that is page numbers two through 11

12 we are going to mark as BFP Exhibit No. 5.

13 We only have a couple of questions on this

14 document.

15 A Do you want me to review the

16 entire document or do you have individual

17 questions from this document?

18 Q I don't believe you need to review

19 it, and perhaps after I ask the first

20 question you will know whether you do.

21 Do you see marked on the

22 right-hand column, there are amounts for


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1 some of these individuals; is that right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q At the very top of that column it

4 says, Total as of 3/15/00, meaning

5 March 15th, 2000. Is that the date by

6 which -- excuse me one second --

7 MR. BERGER: You didn't put a

8 sticker on this, by the way.

9 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 5

10 was marked for identification.)

11 MR. BERGER: While we are on the

12 record, the document says "Confidential,

13 Counsel Only," so therefore so should this

14 portion of the transcript.*










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1 MR. BONIFAZ: Yes, thank you. Let

2 me back up.


4 Q What is this document, Mr. Oliver?

5 A I think this is a list of people

6 who signed up to be agents of the campaign

7 as the counsel has prepared for you all.

8 Q This document was produced from

9 available records; is that right?

10 A That's my understanding, yes.

11 Q Is it also your understanding that

12 it was produced with totals for some

13 individuals as of March 15th, 2000, based on

14 investigations that it preceded?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Is there anything you want to add

17 to that?

18 MR. BERGER: I sent an explanatory

19 cover note by email to Lisa Danetz on this

20 subject which explains that the information

21 is the most current information that we have

22 been able to locate. So yes, I can confirm



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1 everything that was in the email that I sent

2 to your organization.


4 Q With respect to the amounts where

5 they are located, is it then fair to assume

6 that these are minimum amounts but there

7 could be more money raised by these

8 individuals, you know, based on other

9 records that have yet to be reviewed?

10 A I think it's the totals as

11 of 3/15.

12 Q So is it fair to assume that the

13 totals may have increased after 3/15?

14 A They may have, they may not have.

15 It depends on the individual person.

16 Q So is it possible there are other

17 records that are no longer available that

18 would indicate for some of these amounts

19 that they are larger than they are on this

20 spreadsheet?

21 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for

22 speculation.



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1 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

2 MR. BERGER: I can tell you that

3 this is the most current information we have

4 been able to find by searching records. I

5 believe that the document from which this

6 spreadsheet information was taken was dated

7 December of 2000, even though the column

8 says March 15, 2000. Obviously some people

9 here raised money that's not credited or

10 they wouldn't be on the Pioneers list on

11 this blank.

12 So inevitably there's missing

13 information, but this is the most current

14 information we have been able to find.

15 MS. DANETZ: Just so we can be

16 clear, we just want to establish on the

17 record that these amounts would have been a

18 minimum that each of these individuals had

19 attributed to their tracking number but that

20 currently -- I mean, there may be documents

21 out there that are no longer available that

22 would indicate that additional money was



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1 attributable to their tracking number.

2 So for instance, I believe Alfred

3 Austin was identified as a Pioneer, yet he

4 is credited only with $43,000.

5 So we are just trying to establish

6 that the numbers given are minimums but it

7 could be more.

8 MR. BERGER: I don't think you can

9 assume anything other than what I've told

10 you, which is it's the most current

11 information we have available. You can

12 assume that if somebody is on the Pioneer

13 list and there's a blank, that the number is

14 understated.

15 MS. DANETZ: Can we also assume,

16 then, that if somebody is listed as a

17 Pioneer and there is an amount less

18 than $100,000 listed, that that person

19 indeed would have raised at least $100,000?

20 MR. BERGER: Well, I think the

21 answer is no, in the sense that you should

22 ask Mr. Oliver this question. You are



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1 assuming that there's such a thing as a hard

2 and fast total as opposed to people double

3 and triple counting the same dollars that

4 were given to the campaign.


6 Q How did the campaign know when an

7 agent became a Pioneer, Mr. Oliver?

8 A In most cases the individuals, I

9 would assume, call and say, hey, I'm close

10 or I'm there, you know, am I a hundred, am

11 I 100,000? That would have been the best

12 indicator.

13 Q Then was there some effort to

14 record that? The Pioneer would call and

15 say, hey, I'm close, is there some effort to

16 record where they were?

17 A Well, that's what the total would

18 tell you.

19 Q Was there an effort to verify that

20 they had raised that amount?

21 A In some cases I'm sure there was

22 an effort made to verify that amount. I'm



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1 sure that they may have sent a list that was

2 checked against the spreadsheet that one of

3 the individuals had had.

4 MR. BONIFAZ: The next exhibit to

5 be marked as BFP Exhibit No. 6 is Bates

6 stamped 503 to 504.

7 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 6

8 was marked for identification.)


10 Q Do you recognize that document,

11 the two-page document?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Can you describe what it is,

14 please?

15 A There are two fund raising

16 invitations.

17 Q For the Bush campaign?

18 A Yes. Actually one is for the --

19 yeah, they both are for the Bush campaign.

20 Bush for President, Incorporated. One is

21 the Governor Bush Presidential Exploratory

22 Committee.



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1 Q The Governor Bush Presidential

2 Exploratory Committee had advertised that

3 Governor George Bush would be there, George

4 W. Bush; is that right?

5 A On the initial -- yeah, this

6 invitation, BFP 00503, yes.

7 Q Then BFP 00504 advertised that

8 Barbara Bush would be there; is that right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q At the top of these two documents,

11 do you see a heading, Pioneers?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Then a number of names listed

14 under that heading?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Can you explain, comparing this

17 exhibit to the prior exhibit we just looked

18 at, why some of these individuals are not on

19 the list that's been produced for us, which

20 has been marked Exhibit No. 5?

21 A I'm missing page one of this

22 document. There's no A.



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1 MR. GINSBERG: I'm missing page

2 one also.

3 MR. BERGER: I can tell you the

4 intent was, and part of the reason why we

5 produced those two pages was when we found

6 these additional documents that we updated

7 the list. That's why there was an updated

8 list and that's why the name was in bold

9 that we were able to find from other

10 sources.

11 MS. DANETZ: I can't find another

12 page one. I think it might have been the

13 product of a --

14 MR. BONIFAZ: Bad copying? If we

15 find another version of this that we can

16 enter into the record.

17 (Discussion off the record)

18 MR. BONIFAZ: Mitch, unfortunately

19 we did not get this copied properly today.

20 Would it help you if we showed you this page

21 one and then you could explain, you or

22 Mr. Oliver, why it is some of these



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1 individuals listed on this other exhibit are

2 not listed?

3 MR. BERGER: Well, he wouldn't

4 know. That's my responsibility. Obviously

5 we produced this so you would have a list of

6 the Pioneers.

7 I'm happy to check these lists

8 against what we have already produced, and

9 if we have any more information besides the

10 names as they appear here, like amounts that

11 are credited to them and tracking numbers,

12 then we will provide that to you.

13 MR. BONIFAZ: We would appreciate

14 that. In particular, just for the record,

15 Lawrence E. Bathgate is not listed. Robert

16 Chernan is not listed. Leonard S. Coleman,

17 Junior is not listed. Nat Conti.

18 MR. BERGER: All right, we will

19 provide you whatever information we have on

20 this. Obviously we intended to provide you

21 these two documents with the thought that

22 you would have all the additional names of



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1 the Pioneers.

2 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we assume that

3 those people were indeed Pioneers?

4 MR. GINSBERG: You can't assume

5 that.

6 MR. BERGER: I don't know the

7 answer to that. I know what the document

8 says.

9 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm sorry, so we

10 can't assume?

11 MR. BERGER: I don't know. You

12 can ask Mr. Oliver, do you recognize the

13 names of these individuals as being

14 Pioneers, people that achieved Pioneer

15 status.

16 MR. BONIFAZ: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: I think some of

18 these people achieved Pioneer status. I

19 think some of them signed up and didn't make

20 it.


22 Q I would like to ask you about some



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1 specific individuals.

2 A Shall I refer to this?

3 Q That would be helpful, yes.

4 Just for the record, Mr. Oliver

5 was pointing to Schedule A of the Notice of

6 Substitute Deposition, which is Exhibit 1.

7 With respect to communications

8 between Bush for President, Inc. and the

9 following Pioneers concerning any policy

10 matter, based on your testimony did the

11 campaign have any communications between

12 Thomas Kuhn and Bush for President, Inc., on

13 any policy matter?

14 A I'm sorry, I don't understand what

15 you are asking for.

16 Q I'm trying to get to an

17 understanding of communications that

18 occurred between specific Pioneers and Bush

19 for President, Inc., or Bush-Cheney 2000,

20 which is, as Mitch knows, the other Schedule

21 A here.

22 On policy matters that were of



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1 concern either to the campaign or Mr. Kuhn,

2 do you, of behalf of the campaign, know of

3 any communications that occurred between

4 Mr. Kuhn and Bush for President or

5 Bush-Cheney campaign?

6 A I would have been the person Tom

7 would likely have called, and I don't

8 remember specifically any instance of Tom

9 having a communication about a specific

10 policy matter.

11 Q Why would you have been the person

12 he would have called?

13 A Because I was the one who talked

14 to him the most. I was the one who talked

15 to most of these people the most.

16 Q So I understand, you don't

17 remember any communication, but speaking on

18 behalf of the campaign, do you know of any

19 communication that's occurred between

20 Mr. Kuhn and Bush for President, Inc. or

21 Bush-Cheney Campaign 2000 on any policy

22 matter?



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1 MR. BERGER: Just to make sure,

2 you want to exclude, I assume, these

3 individuals sitting with their ears

4 receiving policy information from the

5 candidate making a speech?

6 MR. BONIFAZ: Correct. Thank you.

7 Clarification.

8 THE WITNESS: So the fact that a

9 president gave the speech on something, they

10 may have heard it, you are not interested in

11 that?


13 Q No. We are speaking about

14 communications outside of that situation

15 between Mr. Kuhn and Bush for President,

16 Inc. and Bush-Cheney that the campaign knows

17 about.

18 A I don't know of any specific

19 communications between Tom and me and the

20 campaign.

21 Q Is it your testimony is that we

22 don't know, the campaign does not know?



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1 A We -- oh, the campaign?

2 Q I'm asking you about on behalf of

3 the campaign.

4 A Yes, it is my testimony that we

5 don't know.

6 Q Is it possible that someone else

7 in the campaign knows?

8 MR. BERGER: Let me object to that

9 question as calling for speculation. Let me

10 make a statement and I'll make you an offer,

11 given where we are.

12 MR. BONIFAZ: Okay.

13 MR. BERGER: He doesn't know.

14 You've asked him, right?

15 THE WITNESS: Correct.

16 MR. BERGER: We have asked other

17 people we would believe to be in a position

18 to know. They don't know. It's getting

19 late.

20 My suggestion is, I'll give you an

21 interrogatory answer on behalf of the

22 campaign. That way you will know that we



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1 have asked everybody we think is fairly

2 within the scope of the campaign, and asked

3 them this question, excluding hearing

4 speeches, that kind of stuff, that there was

5 anything resembling a back and forth, a

6 conversation, I guess that's what we are

7 talking about, about a policy matter

8 involving these 31 Pioneers, I think it is,

9 and the campaign.

10 That's the best I can offer for

11 you. I think it will save everybody a lot

12 of aggravation.

13 MR. BONIFAZ: Okay, fair enough.

14 We will accept that offer as the way that

15 these sets of questions will get answered

16 with respect to each one of these

17 individuals.

18 MS. DANETZ: In the notice.

19 MR. BERGER: Absolutely. Look, we

20 have found, as you know, no documents that

21 suggest it. That would be one source of

22 information to answer interrogatories or



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1 deposition testimony. We have spoken to

2 Mr. Oliver, we have spoken to others

3 involved in the campaign, but there's no

4 point in doing this by way of pulling teeth.

5 It seems to me an interrogatory answer will

6 get you what you want.

7 MR. BONIFAZ: Can you give me one

8 more second?

9 MR. BERGER: Sure.

10 (Discussion off the record)

11 MS. DANETZ: I don't know if we

12 are taking an official break.

13 MR. BERGER: We are going to stop

14 at 7:30. My suggestion to you is, he is

15 tired. I've expressed to you my willingness

16 to work out this on this kind of basis.

17 Given that it's a 30(b)(6), you can get

18 really the same kind of information in an

19 interrogatory, so can we let him go home?

20 MS. DANETZ: I'm not trying to be

21 difficult. We want to confer to figure out

22 whether we are done or whether we have, say,



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1 five or 10 more minutes of questions.

2 THE WITNESS: Let's go to the

3 bathroom.

4 MS. DANETZ: I mean, I don't

5 anticipate that we would have more than

6 that, but to the extent that we have five

7 or 10 more minutes --

8 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we just confer?

9 MR. BERGER: Yes, you can confer.

10 MR. BONIFAZ: Thank you.

11 (Recess)

12 MR. BONIFAZ: We have one more

13 exhibit. I'm sorry. This will be marked as

14 Exhibit 7. It's at the bottom of the pile,

15 it doesn't have a Bates stamp, and it's

16 entitled Updated Confirmed 5+ Pioneer

17 Meetings.

18 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 7

19 was marked for identification.)


21 Q Can you describe this document,

22 Mr. Oliver? Or with assistance from --



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1 MR. BERGER: I'm happy to make a

2 representation. We synthesized this

3 document from the available records of the

4 campaign, for example, from guest lists at

5 events, that confirmed the presence of the

6 individuals who are mentioned in Exhibit 7.

7 It is what it says.

8 MR. BONIFAZ: Thank you.


10 Q On the second to right-hand

11 column, do you see several places where GWB,

12 I assume Candidate Bush, attended some of

13 these events; is that right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q So can you explain why, for

16 example, Candidate Bush attended the event

17 on June 3rd, '99, in Texas?

18 A That was our kickoff event in

19 Dallas. There were approximately 2,000

20 people at that event.

21 That's not true. I apologize. I

22 think there may have been 1,700. It was a



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1 large event.

2 Q It wasn't just a Pioneer event?

3 A No, no, no, no. It was an event

4 that -- all these people were there but it

5 was our kickoff event in Dallas, and these

6 people would have been in the photo

7 opportunity prior to that, but --

8 Q Understood. June 7th, '99?

9 A That's the Dallas event. I'm

10 sorry, the first one is Houston. Westin

11 Galleria is Houston and the second one is

12 Dallas.

13 Q Both of these were the kickoff

14 events?

15 A These were the two Texas kickoffs.

16 Q Not specific Pioneer things?

17 A No.

18 Q Then June 15th, '99?

19 A That was a kickoff event in

20 Connecticut.

21 Q Again, not a specific Pioneer

22 event?



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1 A No.

2 Q Are any of these events on this

3 list specific Pioneer events?

4 A I'm going to take a second and

5 look through each one.

6 Q Yes, go ahead.

7 A I don't think, no. The ones -- my

8 memory of all these events are that these

9 are all large fund raising events that we

10 did in conjunction with the campaign that

11 these Pioneers happened to be in attendance

12 at.

13 For example, I think if you go

14 back and look, some of these people, like

15 East Brunswick, it was a big event we did in

16 New Jersey.

17 Q I'm sorry, what's the date on that

18 one?

19 A That's the 10/27/99.

20 These events in Pennsylvania that

21 are on page -- I'm sorry -- page one of

22 this?



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1 Q Yes.

2 A Were the Pennsylvania four stops

3 we did over that two-day period. Then the

4 Florida one is the next stop we did in

5 Florida.

6 Q This event on October 1, '99, on

7 the second page in New York, what was that

8 event?

9 A If my memory is correct, that was

10 a big event we did in New York. We did

11 multiple New York events.

12 Q That was the only event, according

13 to this document, where you were in

14 attendance?

15 A I was -- I didn't see this

16 document until in preparation, but I was in

17 attendance at most of these events. I don't

18 think I went to all of them but I went to

19 most of them.

20 Q So just to clarify, then, none of

21 these events listed on these two pages were

22 events specifically for the Pioneers?



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1 A No.

2 Q A couple more questions and I'm

3 done.

4 Your testimony earlier in the

5 prior deposition that there was this

6 reception at a convention?

7 A At the convention, yes.

8 Q That was one event you could

9 remember that was specifically for the

10 Pioneers?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Speaking on behalf of the

13 campaign, do you know of any other events

14 that were coordinated, hosted, organized by

15 the campaign specifically for the Pioneers?

16 A There were other events that

17 Pioneers attended, like these kind of --

18 these fund raisers.

19 Q Right, but any other events like

20 the reception at the convention?

21 A I'm sure there's the potential to

22 have been a specific Pioneer event, but I



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1 don't remember the specific -- I'm sure

2 there was the potential to have another one,

3 but the one that I remember the most

4 succinctly -- the one I remember is the one

5 I've discussed.

6 Q Was there a practice from time to

7 time to try to bring the Pioneers and only

8 the Pioneers together with campaign

9 officials and/or the candidates?

10 A We tried to -- I think there were

11 times when we would go to a city, obviously,

12 we would invite the Pioneers to come to

13 whatever events that were going on if there

14 was a fund raising with them. You mean a

15 specific meeting on the Pioneers? We may

16 have had another one in Texas, but I don't

17 remember specifically.








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1 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we just keep

2 this open for the purpose of the

3 interrogatories, that we get to attach it as

4 an exhibit?

5 MR. BERGER: Yes, the

6 interrogatory is going to be a sworn answer,

7 so you don't need to worry about that. It's

8 going to a piece of admissible testimony for

9 you, but other than that, I think your

10 deposition is done, if that's the only basis

11 which you want to keep it open.

12 MR. BONIFAZ: That would be the

13 only basis on which to keep it open.

14 MS. DANETZ: If I could just say

15 what other information you could have

16 represented during the deposition that you

17 would provide.

18 MR. BERGER: We will provide the

19 information that I represented that we will

20 provide. I am not otherwise agreeing that

21 this deposition remains open.

22 I'm sure that we will be able to


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1 work things out as we have worked things out

2 until now, but I think we have had enough of

3 this man's time today, so I'll say thank you

4 for spending your time here today.

5 MR. BONIFAZ: Thank you.

6 (Whereupon, at 7:40 p.m., the

7 deposition of JOHN L. OLIVER,

8 III was adjourned.)

9 * * * * *















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